UN FINDS WMD...OK saddam lovers, what now?

by dolphman 280 Replies latest social current

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    What all of you taking this 'high road' regarding 'no war' stand, fail to see is, lives have been sacrificed for far less a practical cause than 'oil' (and Iam not acceding to that premise). The community of democratic/socialist nations have offered lives on the battlefields of history for nothing less than an 'ideal'.

    Not only are ideals involved with this madman Sadam, but real palpable measurable effects on the entire world. To uncatagorically dismiss Iraq's role in worldwide terror, is really being dishonest for the sake of peace. Of course everyone with any sense wants peace.

    Remember when you were in grade school, and that one particular bully would disrupt whatever activity the class was involved in? If in fact you were the target of his goading, remember the peace realized when you either stood up to him, or he/she was trotted off to the principles office?

    How many more years of goading, proding, fomenting of trouble, will you suggest we allow Sadam to continue?

    When is enough enough? Maybe YOU do not want to deal with it, but will your children or children's children pay a price to great, sometime in the future? If you can say affirmatively that they wont, then have it, believe what you may. BUT if you are wrong, who will be lamenting the dereliction of the duty you should have fulfilled?

    Buying a fuel efficient vehicle does not change the facts. Until the world wide community decides to stop using oil, we no matter what, will have to deal with it.

    Danny

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    Danny,

    I don't think one American life is worth risking for the profits of Bush's oil business. I'm not against making money at all, but killing innocent people to do so is ethically WRONG and just as evil a thing to do as anything Sadaam has done or is doing.

    allow any crazy goofball dictator to ignite thousands of oil wells

    that was a decade ago.

    manufacture/ stock pile huge casches of henious chemical weapons

    and the USA has MORE than he does. What makes him the bad guy and we're not? We used chemicals in Vietnam.

    where any little child walking down the streets of Bagdad may be the unwitting receiptent of the errant slug.

    it seems the children of Iraq are doomed cuz we're sure not helping them either.

    If there was concrete evidence of WMD in Iraq, it would be a different story, but since they were all destroyed during the Gulf War and he hasn't really had the capabilities to rebuild that stock, I have a problem believing the threat is as serious as implied.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    back2,

    So because Sadam fired those oil wells ten years ago, he somehow has changed his thinking, he now has been enlightened, he now promises to be a good little dictator?

    Take the blinder's of wishfulness off. Look at the reality, instead of this oh so common trend amongst the 'anti-this' crowd, of taking a very complex issue down to an expression of simplistic generalization. Of course even 'one life' is important.

    Here's the challenge. You will be hard pressed to find any conflict, any worthwhile endeavor or government in exsistance that has not resulted in the loss of a life. Each of us are dying a little bit everyday, devoting our lives to our employer's well being. We humans expend our life, for little more than some meager (in most cases) material wealth. So unless your willing to trek back in the woods, live off the ground, build a self sustaining survival camp, each of us devotes our life to something. Jw's to probably the most unfulfilling causes ever known.

    The term 'bleeding heart' came about because of statements you just made. Try seeing through the clear glass of reality, instead of the rose colored glasses you wish to wear.

    Danny

  • Aztec
    Aztec

    We're being fed propaganda plain and simple. The US only goes after dictators like Saddam when we can benefit. Our government allows plenty of evil to continue in the world without raising a finger as long as they play nice with us. Look at the human rights violations going on in Saudi Arabia and China. As for the children of Iraq, who put them in that situation? Saddam for sure but also the US with it's neverending sanctions. Something else I found on the internet that I really enjoyed:

    Understanding Oil
    By Serj Tankian
    9/13/2001

    The brutal attacks/bombings this week in New York, and Washington D.C., along with threats of attacks there and elsewhere in the country have changed our times forever. While the mass media concentrates on the details of the destruction, and the blanketed words of politicians, I will attempt to understand and explain the events from the fence. BOMBING AND BEING BOMBED ARE THE SAME THINGS ON DIFFERENT SIDES OF THE FENCE.

    Terror is not a spontaneous human action without credence. People just dont hijack planes and commit harikari (suicide) without any weight of thought to the action. No one in the media seems to ask WHY DID THESE PEOPLE DO THIS HORRIFIC ACT OF VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION?

    To be able to understand the answer to this, we must first look at our U.S. Mideast Policy. During most of the 20th century, U.S. businesses have worked on attaining oil rights and concessions from countries in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. After WWI, secret back door deals by our State Dept. yielded oil rights from then defeated Turkey to fields in what is now Iraq and Saudi Arabia, in return for looking the other way at a crime against humanity, the Genocide of the Armenians by the Turks. Oil profits have been the motivating factors behind many attempts at counterinsurgency of democratic regimes by the CIA and the U.S in the Middle East (such as Iran in the 1950s, where the Shah replaced the Prime Minister who refused to give up oil rights to the U.S., and since the people couldnt deal with the Shah, an extremist government headed by the Ayatollah Khomeini ultimately prevailed). During the Iran-Iraq war, America supplied both sides with weapons and advice. These are not the actions of a rich superpower wanting peace. Lets not forget that Saddam Hussein, before being Americas vision of the Anti-Christ, was a close ally of the U.S., and the CIA. So what was the firm belief system of consecutive American administrations that caused all this to occur ? PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WILL LEAD TO HIGHER OIL AND GASOLINE PRICES. Lets not also forget the power of the Arms industry, disguised as defense, that still sells billions of dollars of weapons to the area. Therefore it has not been in the short-term economic interest of the U.S. to foster Peace in the Middle East. Using the above reasoning, the U.S. has encouraged extremist governments, toppled democracies, as in the case of Iran to replace it with a monarchy, rigged elections, and many more unspeakable political crimes for U.S. businesses abroad. Lets not also forget the Red Scare. During the war between the then Soviet Union and Afghanistan, the U.S. armed and supported the Taliban, a fundamentalist Muslim organization, and allowed them to export opium and heroin out of their country to pay for those weapons. Therefore the Taliban rose to power and control with the help of the U.S.A. Today, the bombing of Iraq still continues, no longer covered by the media, the economic embargo still remains, killing millions of children, and recently, while the world and the U.N. General Assembly have cried out to bring in peacekeeping forces into Israel and Palestine, to end the escalated war and recent assassinations, the U.S. has vetoed the rest of the Security Council and has halted the possibility of peace, there, in the most volatile place in the world.

    People in Serbia, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, and Afghanistan to name a few have seen bombs fall, not always at military targets and kill innocent civilians, as the scene in New York city yesterday. The wars waged by our government in our names has landed smack in the middle of our living room. The half hour of destruction closed down all world financial markets, struck the central headquarters of our military, and had our leaders running into bunkers, and our citizens into fear and frenzy. What scares me more than what has occurred is what our reactions to the occurrences may cause. President Bush belongs to a long generation of Republican Presidents who love war economies. The media has only concentrated on the bombings, if you will, and what type of retaliations are looming for the perpetrators. What everyone fails to realize is that the bombings are a reaction to existing injustices around the world, generally unseen to most Americans. To react to a reaction would be to further sponsor the reaction. In other words, my belief is that the terror will multiply if concrete steps are not taken to sponsor peace in the middle east, NOW. This does not mean that we should not find the guilty party(s), Bin Laden, or whoever they may be, and not try them. Put simply, as long as a major injustice remains, violence precipitates to the surface of life.

    Native American folklore, the Bible, Nostradamus, and many other major religious beliefs point to this era with the visuals of yesterdays disasters, and conditions of ecological disasters we experience daily in our lives today. War, rumors of war, famine, long burning fires, etc., are at our doorstep. We can prevail over this possible vision with the power of the human spirit, understanding, compassion, and peace. ITS TIME TO PUT OUR NEEDS FOR SECURITY AND SURVIVAL, ACHIEVED ONLY THROUGH PEACE, ABOVE AND BEYOND PROFITS, ESPECIALLY IN THESE TIMES.

    SOLUTION:

    The U.S. should stop sidestepping the U.N. Security Council, and allow U.N. Peacekeeping troops and missions to the Middle East. Stop the violence first.

    Stop the bombing and patrol of Iraq.

    With todays gains in the use of alternative fuels, develop them to full usage with autos and other utilities, to make the country less dependant on an already depleting natural reserve, oil.

    By initiating peace, we would have already shaken the foundations of support for Bin Laden, and/or all those that sponsor activities like those we saw yesterday, and break the stronghold of extremists on the world of Islam. On the other hand, if we carry out bombings on Afghanistan or elsewhere to appease public demand, and very likely kill innocent civilians along the way, wed be creating many more martyrs going to their deaths in retaliation against the retaliation. As shown from yesterdays events, you cannot stop a person whos ready to die.

    This was posted on the internet only two days after Sept. 11th but it is still relevant.

    ~Aztec

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Another viewpoint in The Observer:

    Even the megapower needs friends

    Despite its awesome military might, the United States is stretched and vulnerable. That is Tony Blair's opportunity

    Andrew Rawnsley
    Sunday January 12, 2003
    The Observer
    In the history of our planet, never before has there been a power so apparently massive as the United States. Her stock market is worth more than the rest of the world's bourses put together. Her spending on military force is greater than the combined weight of the next nine largest powers put together.

    Her language - or perhaps I should say her version of our language - is the nearest thing to a global tongue; the dollar is the nearest thing to a global currency. No previous imperium, from the Ancient Greeks to the nineteenth-century British, has been so dominant.

    Whether you be a White House hawk who seeks to impose an American World Order on the planet, whether you be a hater of globalisation protesting against the beast, whether you be a British Prime Minister trying to ride the tiger, omnipotent America is the orthodox way of looking at the United States. That is why she inspires so much awe, envy and loathing among the non-American populations of the planet.

    And yet it is possible and perhaps more accurate to look at the United States in an entirely different way. She is Gulliver bound by the Lilliputians. America is a rather feeble megapower.

    North Korea is a rogue leftover of the Cold War that the United States won more than a decade since. Kim Jong Il's awful regime cannot feed millions of its own people. This is one of the most backward places on earth, except in its frightening potential to manufacture and export weapons of mass destruction. Kim Jong Il was branded part of the 'axis of evil' in George W. Bush's State of the Union address a little over a year ago when the American President warned North Korea that any attempt to restart its nuclear missile programme would be answered with terrible punishment.

    Well, now North Korea is cocking a plutonium snook at Washington by brazenly threatening to do what Saddam Hussein is only suspected of trying to do. Nuclear weapons in the hands of North Korea is a clear and present danger, amplified by that unpredictable regime's record of selling missiles to other risk states. And what does George Bush do? He suggests talks. Yes, defy the hyper-power, and they'll ask for a chat.

    There seems to be a paradoxical rule that to be labelled as a Public Enemy Number One by the United States is your best guarantee of longevity. Think Colonel Gadaffi, still ruling Libya all these years since Ronald Reagan tried to bomb him into submission. Think Fidel Castro, still ruling Cuba despite the efforts of President Kennedy and every successive occupant of the White House to quash him. Think, most of all, Osama bin Laden. George Bush demanded that the most expensive intelligence services and the mightiest armed forces on the planet bring him Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive.' He is still waiting for the head of Osama. For all the CIA appears to know, bin Laden could be mashing castor oil beans in a north London flat.

    Worse, the terrorism that he spawned is more virulent than ever. Don't take my word for it. In an extraordinary confession of failure, and possibly a bid for an even bigger budget, the director of the CIA himself says that al-Qaeda is now more of a threat than it was before the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon.

    Those atrocities were the most vivid illustration of one particular American weakness: the vulnerability of the hippo to the wasp. Armadas of aircraft carriers are not terribly effective against the suicide bomber.

    The very strength of the United States accounts for much of her weakness. Her dependence on the oil that keeps the wheels of that power turning renders her incapable of forcing Saudi Arabia to account for its complicity in the breeding and funding of terrorism. The world's greatest power cannot impose a peace settlement on Israel-Palestine. Washington is suffering from imperial overstretch. The response to North Korea has been so limp because all American attention is presently focussed on Iraq. Even the megapower finds it has the capacity to cope with only one front at a time.

    The protracted and confused progress towards disarming Saddam is itself an illustration that America is far from all-powerful. It is well over a year since George W. Bush dedicated himself to completing his daddy's unfinished business with the Iraqi tyrant. Only now is America's military machine beginning to assemble sufficient forces in the Gulf for the job. I don't have much doubt that the United States is capable of smashing the Iraqi army, assuming that most of them don't desert or surrender first. My hunch is that 2003 will prove to be a bad year for dictators called Saddam. But contrary to expectation and stereotype, the United States has been slow to go about neutralising the butcher of Baghdad.

    Giants tend to become musclebound. American military power is indeed awesome, but its very size acts as a drag on its use. I recently suggested to a British Minister intimately involved with the military preparations that the United States didn't really need the assistance of our forces to attack Saddam. British troops, sailors and pilots would be present in the Gulf for largely symbolic and diplomatic reasons. I was quite wrong, responded the Minister and he offered an example from the campaign to remove the Afghan Taliban. The bombers of the United States Air Force could not be refuelled by the planes of the American navy because - extraordinary, but true - they are not compatible. The Americans relied on British refuelling aircraft to keep their planes in the sky.

    Being the megapower naturally makes her enemies while encouraging a belief in Washington that she does not really need to work at keeping friends: the failure to 'listen back' to the rest of the world identified by Mr Blair last week. Yet even America finds that she cannot operate without allies. Even this right-wing and unilateral-minded administration has made the rude discovery that they cannot rule the world alone.

    Their allies in the Far East all want a diplomatic, not a shooting, solution to the crisis with North Korea. In the Middle East, the Turks are being difficult about allowing their soil to be used for an invasion of Iraq from the north. The second rank powers on the Security Council - Russia, China and France - are staying America's hand by demanding the production of the so far elusive 'smoking gun' before they will consider mandating a war against Saddam.

    Even Washington's most steadfast friend, Tony Blair, insists that the UN inspectors must be given the 'time and space' to carry out their task thoroughly. So even Washington is drawing away from the 27 January deadline which it had previously schemed in as the trigger for beginning the attempt to topple Saddam.

    This is evidently infuriating the hawks in the Bush administration who never wanted to operate through the United Nations. They are spitting about Hans Blix and his inspection team, they are spinning against Colin Powell and the internationalists at the State Department, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they soon start turning on Mr Blair for his part in nudging Dubya into the hands of the UN.

    The frustration of the White House hawks is a further illustration of the curbs on American power. They didn't want to involve the UN, an organisation nowhere more despised than among the American Republican Right. And yet even with one of their own in the White House, the hyperpower has been obliged to pay obeisance to international opinion.

    The only superpower is a lonely superpower. And this, it seems to me, is the important opening for Tony Blair to exploit. As her best and often only friend, Britain is particularly well placed to influence the behaviour of the United States for the good. America's weakness is Britain's opportunity.

    Pasted by Englishman.

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront
    Buying a fuel efficient vehicle does not change the facts. Until the world wide community decides to stop using oil, we no matter what, will have to deal with it.

    The USA is the one who should be taking the lead - NOW - in this endeavor. Global warming is serious business. The world wide community is trying to encourage US to take the lead and GB refuses to even think about it AND makes changes that are WORSE for the environment. The average American is too caught up in their glorious fake lifestyle to give a damn, that's what's so sad.

    When is enough enough? Maybe YOU do not want to deal with it, but will your children or children's children pay a price to great, sometime in the future? If you can say affirmatively that they wont, then have it, believe what you may. BUT if you are wrong, who will be lamenting the dereliction of the duty you should have fulfilled?

    Global warming is more a real threat to my kids than Sadaam IMO. In the Bay Area of California, kids are exposed to as many cancer-causing chemicals in the air to last a lifetime by the age of 3. Not to mention that heavy flooding is estimated to take out coastal areas within the next 30 years due to global warming. There's always going to be mad rulers - getting rid of Sadaam is not going to solve everyone's problem. Addressing foreign policy matters is the answer, however the USA refuses to negotiate on anything, and threatens anyone who stands in their way, just as the big bully did in school as you mentioned above.

    Whatever happened to finding Osama and bringing him to justice for what he allegedly did? My, that seems to have slipped out of the news and out of peoples minds. Now all they can see is how evil Sadaam is, although our President vowed to bring Osama to justice.

    Turn your TV OFF. They're brainwashing you!! :-)

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Simon,

    You said,

    The USA committed one of the worst acts of genocide in recent history by practically wiping out the native Americans.

    Also, over 620,000 were killed in the civil war which was about what exactly? ... power! I read somewhere that more Americans have been killed BY Americans than any other war in history.

    A study of history and foregn affairs shows that many countries have an intense hatred of the western nations for a reason. It is surprising the level of animosity shown by western people against muslim countries when they have caused no where near as much suffering and deaths as we have caused them. Yet that is Ok ?

    Ummm, when the native americans were first being wiped out it was the british settlers doing it, they weren't americans yet. We americans learned it from you. I do find it kinda humerous being lectured about how the US treats people by a UK citizen. The foriegn affairs of the british empire are to be our guide? Fact is I think we had a little revolution over here due to just those foreign affairs of the brits, and WE WON! Seriously though, we've talked it over, we're willing to give back Massachuests as long as you take Cardinal Law and Pedophile Geoghan with it.

    By the way, Someone mentioned that Iraq looked upon Kuwait as illegitimate becuase it was created by the British, SO THE F*CK Was Iraq. Geez it was you brits that started all this trouble with your quest for EMPIRE carving up land into nations that never existed before. HOLY COW!!

    No offense Simon, but ya left me the opening.

    I find the second paragraph interesting. What exactly has the US done to cause suffering. I'm gonna lay it at the feet of the Turks and then the Brits. On the other hand, had the US not gone over and got oil concessions most of those countries would still be herding dung beetles for a living.

    AZTEC

    Thanks for the above links, here's a good reason why "negotiations" aren't gonna work.

    In January 2002, the United Kingdom directly accused Syria of violating U.N. sanctions on Iraq by shipping over 100,000 bbl/d of Iraqi oil to Syria without U.N. permission. An estimated $100 million or so per month of Iraq's illegal oil export revenues are estimated to be coming from the Syria pipeline alone, with oil sold to Syria at a significant price discount off of Kirkuk published prices.

    In April 2000, the U.S. Navy stopped a Russian tanker, the Akademik Pustovoit, which it suspected might be smuggling Iraqi oil. The United Nations later determined that around 20% of the vessel's gasoil cargo (which Shell said it owned) was of Iraqi origin. In April 2001, an Iraqi-owned vessel -- the Zainab -- sunk off the Dubai coast, leaking over 1,000 tons of smuggled diesel oil and polluting Gulf waters and UAE beaches. At least two other ships smuggling Iraqi oil sunk during 2001 -- one off the Kuwaiti coast in October, and one in November. During 2001, Iraqi oil smuggling through Iranian waters reportedly was reduced significantly (possibly 50%), as Iran increased its efforts at stopping suspect vessels. In October 2001, the United Nations discovered that two oil shipments on the "Essex" had been "topped off" after U.N. inspectors had signed off, adding some 500,000 barrels of crude oil to the ship. The Essex was chartered by trader Trafigura, run by former employees of Marc Rich.

    From reading the included links it quite quickly becomes evident that most Iraqi oil that US companies buy is second hand, being bought from a pool of oil, not from Iraq directly. This "profiteering" quickly disappears when looked at in the proper light.

    An estimated 30% of Iraqi oil is sold initially to Russian firms (i.e., Emerkom, Kalymneftegas, Machinoimport, Rosnefteimpex, Sidanco, Slavneft, Soyuzneftegaz, Tatneft, and Zarubzhneft). The remaining 70% of Iraq's oil is first purchased by companies from many countries, including Cyprus, Sudan, Pakistan, China, Vietnam, Egypt, Italy, Ukraine, and others. Iraqi oil is normally then resold to a variety of oil companies and middlemen before being purchased by end users.

    Notice in the above quote from your link that the US buys so little oil directly that it isn't even mentioned.

    Remember too that as President and Vice President all their stocks have been sold and reinvested by a blind trust. Bush and Cheney neither one have ANY IDEA where their money is at. Damn, why be bothered with details when making accusations.

    These facts show there is a serious conflict of interest with the relationships between the Bush family, the Bush Administration, Chevron, and Halliburton. The facts show the Bush family and friends stand to profit greatly from war and the controlled flow of Iraqi oil. Why should these conflicts of interest be allowed to progress to the point of war? The invasion of Iraq will certainly kill many people who have no interest, and who's families will not profit from the success or failure of Chevron, BP, Halliburton, or the Carlyle Group

    The "Facts" show nothing of the sort. Neither Bush nor Cheney have any idea where their money is. Your anti-war Peace at all costs attitude sickens me. I won't profit one iota from this war, but I realize it's necessary.

    Edited by - Yerusalyim on 18 January 2003 18:19:3

    Edited by - Yerusalyim on 18 January 2003 18:22:32

    Edited by - Yerusalyim on 18 January 2003 18:26:9

    Edited by - Yerusalyim on 18 January 2003 18:35:38

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    Yeru,

    First please provide the link from where you gleamed that info.

    Secondly, the reason the USA is not profiting from the oil now is reason why Bush would love to get control over that region - so they can make a profit! You think it'll all be the same after the war? Pa-LEEZ!

    Ummm, when the native americans were first being wiped out it was the british settlers doing it, they weren't americans yet. We americans learned it from you.

    It doesn't matter who we learned it from. C'mon dude - just because they murdered millions of Indians does not make it okay for us to do the same thing - what kind of twisted reasoning is that?

    Remember too that as President and Vice President all their stocks have been sold and reinvested by a blind trust. Bush and Cheney neither one have ANY IDEA where their money is at. Damn, why be bothered with details when making accusations.

    Where's the proof? You're trying to tell me a multi-millionaire has no idea where his money is? People like that don't keep money very long. Again, seeing is believing. But even so, the mere fact they have stock in the company is all the evidence needed - they know that if the stock price goes up, so does their personal gain. It's a no-brainer here...

    Edited by - back2dafront on 18 January 2003 19:7:46

  • Simon
    Simon

    Yeru: it's a shame the USA can't learn from the past mistakes in history. It can't even learn from the mistakes of 20 years ago. Yes, the British empire caused a lot of problems in the far east ... and it bred resentment and retaliation - exactly what the USA has got in return for it's appressive policies.

    As for the American indians ... it is a fact that they fared significantly better under the British than under the Americans as a comparison of the native populations of Canada and the USA show.

  • freeman
    freeman

    Aztec you really have done an excellent job of researching your data. You obviously put in some time into this and are very passionate about your beliefs, and thats excellent! However you made the same mistake I did some years ago and for the same reasons. If I were your professor grading your essay I would give you a very good mark, but you would still be a few points short of the highest grade possible.

    And why would that be? Because you have all kinds of good data but you started with a false premise. Your premise is that Bush/Cheney and the other assorted big-oil cohorts are pushing for war with Iraq for the purpose of financial gain. You in fact said:

    The facts show the Bush family and friends stand to profit greatly from war and the controlled flow of Iraqi oil.

    For this to be true, oil prices would have to rise considerably and remain there over considerable time as a result of the war. Are you aware what happened to oil prices during the last Iraq war? Are you aware how the Saudis were beside themselves with grief because the benchmark price of crud plummeted and hovered at approximately $10.00 per barrel?

    I would suggest that if any of you have oil futures, sell them now because if history is any indicator, when this dictator is removed from power, oil futures are going down.

    So in conclusion I will say to you what my professor said to me (Im paraphrasing as he said it much better): I loved your work, your effort and passion are obvious and Im giving you extra credit for that and you will need that extra credit too due to the fact that I will be deducting a few points because your data does not support your premise, you simply are wrong.

    wishing you well

    Freeman

    Edited by - freeman on 18 January 2003 19:22:2

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