You keep talking about these "rules" - who made the rules? who gets to decide who's breaking the rules? Who gets to decide who can break rules & who can't?
France & Germany Take the Same Stance
by MrMoe 103 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Xander
Actually, that would be the UN.
And, as a whole, I don't object to their 'rules', indeed, I fully support them.
What I DO object to is the obvious hypocrisy the US is showing. What are the reasons to go to war with Iraq that are being proposed?
1) He broke 'the rules' (given, but please name ONE rule he has broken that has never, EVER been broken by the US or its allies?)
2) He has WMD (well, damn, so do we. And France. And Brittain. And China. And India. And....)
3) He has supported terrorism. (Really? When? The US has supported terrorism. Israel has. Afghanistan has. Iran has. Saudi Arabia really, REALLY has - indeed, is the current center for most of it. But what terrorism against the US has been associated with Iraq?)
-
pettygrudger
That was my point Xander - the UN - NOT THE USA!!!!!
For us to fly in the face & do whatever WE WANT is totally ridiculous. I applaud France & Germany actually standing up to us bullys!
-
Xander
This is beautiful:
EDIT: And LOL, another good one. Geez, thx for introducing me to this strip, this guy has quite a sense of humor:
Edited by - Xander on 22 January 2003 17:37:21
-
GermanXJW
I told on JWD that I attended a workshop by German exit-counselor Dieter Rohmann, a collegue and friend of Steve Hassan, in September last year.
Rohmann explained to be suspicious when someone tries to draw a black and white picture. That is rarely the case, nobody is all good or all bad.
Saddam Hussein is a good example where propaganda is trying to draw a black and white picture. (Now decide which way you look at it.)
-
jws
Rules are rules. You break them, you pay the penalty. Period.
OK.... and correct me if I'm wrong, but if we start a war with Iraq without UN approval, then we will be breaking rules. How should we pay the penalty for our crime? Should the rest of the world rush in to attack the US and defend Iraq in much the same way the US rushed in to defend Kuwait when it was unjustly attacked? By your statement, if we attack Iraq, we deserve punishment.
I see so many people trying to see things in black and white. They see rules as absolute. You break them, you get punished. It's a convenient way to deal with things without having to face them or think about them. Unfortunately, I think I used to think that way when I was a JW. JW=saved at armageddon, non-JW=not saved. All nice and comfy and black and white.
Ah, snug lie those that slumber Beneath Conviction's roof. Their floors are sturdy lumber Their windows weatherproof. But I sleep cold forever And cold sleep all my kind For I was born to shiver In the draft from an open mind. Phyllis McGinley - 1940
But rules should not be hard and fast and we should evaluate intent and whether any harm was done a little more. What is Saddam's intent? What exactly is the US's?
-
Perry
Yes, German JW,
I'm sure Sadaam gave his daughters' husband a nice funeral after he murdered him.
But seriously folks, propaganda is used by everyone. It is a tool that is a must in selling things. In my opinion the US sees a serious threat to world security NOT because of Sadaam's connections to Bin Laden, but because of a real and present danger that has emerged from the unholy alliance between Iraq and North Korea.
Sadaam is a secular tyrant. He despises the mind control of religious psychotics because he cannot compete with it. He is far more comfortable operating like a mafia with all its fear and violence rather than a psychophathic, narcissistic, charisimatic figure. He knows where his strength lies and won't get into a situation he cannot control. He is a survivor first and foremost.
North Korea speaks his language. Weaponry, and lots of it. North Korea has the technology and Iraq has the cash from oil. These two nations could clean the clock of most every nation if they are allowed to totally hook up. Together, they have the technology, money and the motive. In the recent past, massive shipments of arms and nuclear technology have been exported from North Korea to the region.
Why do you think North Korea has been screaming like a spoiled brat here lately? Because they see a threat to their cash cow....Iraq. Hellooooo everyone. Wake Up.
Now, how do you sell a conspiracy? Simple you don't. Much too complicated for the average hard head. So, you search for legitimacy. Ahhhhh, UN violations.....that's the ticket. That makes it legal to disarm Iraq.
I am in favor of this war because it is essentially a war against tyranny that has risen to the point of a global threat. Kick ass George!
Edited by - Perry on 22 January 2003 20:18:20
-
gsx1138
The fact is Bush failed horribly to provide a link between Saddam and Bin Laden. In fact the more they dug the opposite was true. They can't stand each other. The coming Iraq war has nothing to do with 9/11. Bush is just playing on American fears after the fact to justify business interests. You can shout 9/11 from the rooftops but that will not change the facts. I really don't blame Saddam for getting pissy about the U.N. resolutions. How would you like a no fly zone over Texas and Florida? You cry Kuwait. Well, we were the ones who ok'd the operation in the first place (how quickly we forget). But his crimes in Kuwait! Those stories told in Congressional hearings were later proven either false or very suspect.
I'm not here to defend Saddam. By all means we need his ass outta there. But we are loosing focus on what is important, war on terrorism. But he paid families of suicide bombers! They bombed Israel not us and I have little doubts that Saddam did that to give a big "fuck you" to the U.S. A report was released last year by the CIA that said Saddam was a less threat now than he has been in ten years. I don't see that quoted on the news every night. I have to say it, people who see things in black and white because they were told to are no different than Dubs. Stop believing all the propoganda being thrown your way and think critically. This war is nothing more than a "wag the dog" that will cost us blood. But we'll be made to feel ok about it because their coffins will draped in the American flag. They'll be called heros while the stock market goes up and we'll all feel good knowing they died for the American way.
-
Xander
the unholy alliance between Iraq and North Korea.
The 'unholy alliance'?!
The 'UNHOLY ALLIANCE'!?!?!
ROFLAO!!
OMG, that has to be the (no offense) STUPIDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD!
Does North Korea even have an AMBASSADOR to Iraq? NO! Have there leaders ever met? NO! Where did this 'unholy' *laugh* 'alliance' come from?
Well, that would be the mind of G.W. Bush, now wouldn't it? (Or, more specifically, the mind of one of his PR spin doctors)
Here:
To complete the roundup, ties were also established with Kuwait. The DPRK has long had a large trade mission there, and has in recent years sent up to 2,000 construction workers (as South Korea used to do in this region). Local media quoted a visiting North Korean deputy foreign minister as taking gratifyingly anti-Iraqi positions--contra the nave assumption that all "rogue states" must be best buddies, North Korea and Iraq fell out long ago when Baghdad saw Pyongyang as taking Tehran's side during the Iran-Iraq war.
Since you seem kinda slow, let me point it out for you....when they say 'DRPK', they are referring to the 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea' - North Korea. 'Pyongyang' also is a reference to North Korea - that's their capital.
In short, NORTH KOREA and IRAQ are not friendly - they are ENEMIES OF EACH OTHER.
Edited by - Xander on 22 January 2003 19:26:24
-
Perry
Does North Korea sponsor terrorism?
North Korea, the worlds only unreconstructed Stalinist country, has not been conclusively linked to a terrorist attack for about 15 years, but it still has a prominent place in the U.S.-led war on terrorism because it sells advanced missile technology to other states that sponsor terrorists. Even more worrisome is North Koreas October 2002 admission that it has had an ongoing secret nuclear-weapons program, in violation of its treaty commitments and a 1994 agreement with the United States to halt its pursuit of nuclear weapons. North Korea also says it has other more powerful weapons. The State Department has listed North Korea as a state sponsor of terrorism, and in his January 2002 State of the Union address, President Bush said North Korea belonged to an axis of evil that also includes Iran and Iraq .Does North Korea cooperate with other state sponsors of terrorism?
Yes. North Korea has reportedly sold ballistic-missile technology to countries that the State Department lists as sponsors of terrorismIran, Syria, and Libyaas well as to other states including Pakistan and Yemen. Such technology could be used to deliver chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. These sales are the primary source of hard currency for the isolated country, and the proceeds allow North Korea to fund its own missile programs.Is Yemen a haven for terrorism? Yes. Yemen, located at the southern tip of the Arabian Peninsula, is a poor Muslim country with a weak central government, armed tribal groups in outlying areas, and porous borders, which makes it fertile ground for terrorists. Its government has tried to help the United States after September 11, and the State Department calls Yemen an important partner in the campaign against terrorism, providing assistance in the military, diplomatic, and financial arenas. But experts say that terrorists live in Yemen, sometimes with government approval; Yemen-based corporations are thought to help fund Osama bin Ladens al-Qaeda terrorist network; and Yemenis affiliated with al-Qaeda have targeted U.S. interests in Yemen, including the October 2000 bombing of the navy destroyer U.S.S. Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden. U.S. officials say more al-Qaeda attacks against American interests may now be brewing in Yemen.
How might Iraq deliver chemical or biological weapons? Most experts think that Iraq still has a small stockpile of Scud missiles, which can be fitted with germ or chemical warheads. Scuds are not that accurate and cant reach the United States, but Saddam could try to use them to bombard Israel or Saudi Arabia. Other ways to spread deadly germs or gases include shorter-range rockets, artillery shells, unmanned low-flying drones, and sprayers mounted on fighter jets or helicopters. Moreover, Iraq could pass deadly agents to terrorists, who could use them against civilians.
Clearly, North Korea makes its livelihood from arms sales to many terrorist states. It is the leading supplier of arms technology to these terrorist sponsoring states. The leading rogue state that has a recent history of using weapons of mass destruction is Iraq.
MMMM, the leading supplier and the leading user....sounds like a recipie for diaster to me. Interestingly, a shipment of scud missiles was recently intercepted in Yemen from North Korea.
Although direct arm sales to Iraq are not yet confirmed....they are suspected. Even if they get their WMD delivery systems second hand, through intermediaries, the link is still a very unhealthy one for this planet.