by towerwatchman 99 Replies latest watchtower bible
As Plato said when we come out of the cave by our own efforts we become divine - divinely enlightened - not otherworldly in any way but politically, philosophically and socially aware
edit: food for though eh. In the Republic he advocates aiming for the GOOD as an impersonal good - aiming for goodness in itself.
To Crazy Guy
I believe this new religion Christianity was about introducing a new god to the masses. He was a highbread God with the attributes of many of the older gods of Egypt, Canaan and Greece. The newer god of those older religions like Osiris, Baal and Zues replaced thier fathers took on their attributes and were exalted above them. Jesus was to do the same. He was just like his father a representation of his father then later became one with his father in a trinity like so many of the other gods in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
Christianity was a new religion but an off shoot of Judaism. Since it was a continuation of an old religion it had to be in agreement with it. It is one thing to start a new religion from scratch, it is another to start a new movement that has to agree with 2000 plus years of history, philosophy, and prophecy to name a few.
If you don't think the trinity is a real Christian teaching the read about the meeting in 325 at Nicea. I have been to church and have heard Christian priest trying to explain it they can't but they believe it. Again it would be easy to explain if they just look at the triad gods of Egypt like Osiris, Isis and Horus. This is just one example. Anyway Jesus is really the god of the Christians and there are plenty of scriptures in the New Testament that state this.
Just because other cultures had triad gods, does not equate to the Christian copying this idea. Note in the OT God is addressed in plural form, God speaks of Himself in plural and singular form. This goes back to the beginning of Genesis, therefore when the question of copying comes up, one has to ask “Who copied who?”
I think it's only the JWs that focus on who they presume is the father and want to worship him alone this Jehovah. But whats funny is this Jehovah who really is this god. The Christians kept is vague not saying if it was RA or El or Chronos or Anu. They did this because they wanted all the people to worship Jesus not just Egyptians or just Greeks but everyone in the known world.
Did you read the account in Exodus where YHWH the God of Israel crushes all the Egyptian Gods? Cannot be the God crushing and the one being crushed at the same time.
Exodus 7 God turns water into blood.
Hapi, Osiris, Hatmehyt, Khnum
The Egyptians had a god of the Nile, named Hapi. Hapi was pictured as holding a table on which are vases and flowers and fruit. This was to show that Hapi was the source of all good gifts. The Egyptians had a "Hymn of the Nile" which has the phrase, "Thou art the Lord of the poor and the needy. If thou were overthrown in the heavens the gods would fall upon their faces and men would perish."
Osiris:
This miracle did indeed demonstrate the fall of Hapi. And it demonstrated the weakness of several other gods. While Hapi was the god of the Nile, the Egyptians had a god connected with water. His name was Osiris. He was thought to be the second most important god. According to the Egyptians, he had been murdered by his brother and then brought back to life by his son, Horus, by magic tricks. After this he was king of the blessed dead. When an Egyptian died, he thought he had to appear before Osiris. Osiris would decide if he was innocent of wrongdoing. If he was, then Osiris would let him enter into his kingdom. The water of the Nile was considered the life blood of Osiris. By God turning it to real blood, he was demonstrating that he was much more powerful than Osiris. Osiris needed the good water of the Nile to live. With the Nile water now blood, it represented horrible death instead of wonderful life.
Hatmehyt
The Egyptians also had a goddess named Hatmehyt . She was represented by the symbol of a fish. Many Egyptians wore fish medallions on chains around their necks as good luck charms. But she was shown to have no power. God had killed all the fish of the Nile.
Khnum
And there was the god who was a guardian of the Nile, Khnum. He obviously was not able to protect the Nile against the One True God. God had shown His power over three other Egyptian gods with this first plague. Took four out with one swing.
Frogs Exodus 8:1-16
Hekt, Khnum,
The Egyptians were very impressed with frogs. Each September, after the summer flooding by the Nile River, frogs would become very numerous in the small bodies of water left from the flooding. The Egyptians loved to hear the croaking of all of these frogs. It meant that the gods had done their duty and given the Egyptians enough water to make for a very fruitful next year.
The Egyptians believed the frog was the symbol of the life giving power goddess Hekt. She was the goddess who oversaw the women, the mid-wives, who helped women have babies. She was thought to blow the breath of life into the nostrils of the new babies. Her husband, Khnum, was the god who made the bodies of babies on the potter's wheel from the dust of the ground.
Hekt was represented in paintings as a woman with the head of a frog. She was so important that she is pictured in one place as helping the god Anubis rebuild the body of Osiris after the god Seth had killed him. So when the True God gave Moses and Aaron the power to bring forth frogs by the millions (Exodus 8:1-15), He was showing His power over Hekt. There were so many frogs that they were bringing destruction to the land. The frogs didn't just stay in the pools of water and the river. They jumped into the houses. They jumped in the beds. The Egyptians could not even cook because the frogs were in their ovens. No one could take a step without stepping on a frog.
Pharaoh asks Moses to pray to Jehovah to take away the frogs the next day. This is important. Because Pharaoh is already showing that he believes God is stronger than Hekt. Moses prays to God and the next day the frogs all die. The people gather the dead frogs into large piles. The whole land stinks from the dead frogs.
This was a further demonstration by God to tell the Egyptians that Hekt had no power. Instead of breathing life, the symbol of Hekt is dead and stinking up the land.
Lice Exodus 8:11-18
Seth :
The third plague which God empowers Moses and Aaron to bring on the Egyptians was lice. There has been much discussion for many years about what exactly these lice are. But the Greek version of the Old Testament (known as the Septuagint) uses the Greek word for louse so we must think that it is indeed lice.
The lice that Moses and Aaron bring forth cover the whole land. They are on men and their animals. (There are modern day stories of areas of Egypt having such large outbreaks of the camel tick, that the baby ticks in the sand actually make it look like the sand is alive.) This is like it was with the lice. In our text, Exodus 8:16-19, it says that all the dust of the land became lice.
The Egyptian priests tried to bring forth lice just like they had done with the frogs. But they could not do it. They said this must surely be the finger of God. This term is very important. The use an expression about the finger of a god had it's origin with the god Seth. Seth had fought against Horus for world domination (they wanted to rule the earth). "The finger of Seth" was the expression for this fight over power and rule. The same type of expression had come to be used for other Egyptian gods, such as Thoth who fought against the sun god Ra.
When the Egyptian priests said it was the "finger of God", they were admitting that the One True God was most powerful and he had dominion of the earth.
This plague of lice also was against the Egyptian priesthood itself. The ancient historian Herodotus tells us that the Egyptian priests shaved their bodies every other day to prevent lice and other impure things from adhering to their bodies. The bathed twice every day in cold water and twice each night. With the lice continually upon them, the Egyptian priests would not have been able to be "pure" for their service to their gods. This would also be a way of God showing them that he was more powerful than their gods.
Flies 8:20-32
Khepera
Pharaoh was still refusing to let the Israelites leave Egypt. So God had Moses meet Pharaoh early one morning. Moses told Pharaoh that God would bring flies upon all Egypt the next day. The entire land of Egypt would be filled with flies, except where the Israelites lived. The Israelites would be free of flies. This would show Pharaoh that they were God's people.
The next day swarms of flies came upon all the land of Egypt. The word for swarms can mean "all kinds of" or "mixture". This means all kinds of flies and probably includes the dog-fly which is common there. The dog-fly bites any exposed skin and is painful. The bite usually swells and hurts. The horse-fly would also be included. It has a very painful bite. And it is very probable that the beetle is included in the word used for "fly". The ancient historian Josephus said that they were included.
This plague was aimed at the Egyptian god Khepera. Khepera was represented as a beetle headed human. He was worshipped as the god of the resurrection (rising from the dead to go to heaven). The plague was also against another part of the Egyptians' religious belief. They believed that flies were involved in the process of getting to heaven. They wore ornaments of human-headed flies. These were supposed to help them get to heaven. And their "Book of the Dead" gives honor to the bird fly who was supposed to be able to bring a man to heaven. The flies would also make the Egyptians impure for their religious services.
Pharaoh almost gives in to this plague. He tells Moses that the Israelites may sacrifice in the land of Egypt. Moses, of course, knows this is not possible. Pharaoh then tells him to take them just out of the land. Moses tells him not to go back on his word. The next day God takes the flies away but Pharaoh changes his mind and does not let the Israelites leave.
Death of livestock Exodus 9:1-7.
Hathor and Ptah
Pharaoh had refused to let the Israelites leave Egypt even though God had brought four plagues on Egypt. God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that His hand was now going to be on the cattle, the horses, the asses, the camels, the herds and the flocks of the Egyptians. God would give them some kind of disease. To show that it was God who brought the disease, it would happen the next day and none of the Israelites animals would get the disease.
Just as God had said, all the animals got this disease. Many of the cattle died. The camels and horses were used to carry heavy loads. With them being sick, the Egyptians would have had to carry these loads themselves or just not take the loads where they needed to go. The Egyptians sacrificed animals to their gods. They would not be able to sacrifice these animals because they believed a diseased animal was impure. In the days of Egyptian rule, many times wealth was partly estimated by how many animals a person owned. The animals were used as money in transactions many times. When the cattle died, the Egyptians lost a great deal of wealth.
Most importantly, this plague showed God to be more powerful than some of the Egyptian gods. Hathor was the goddess of love, beauty, and joy. She was pictured as giving the pharaoh divine milk to drink. And, she was pictured as a cow. If the cows died, Hathor was sick and in trouble of dying herself. The Egyptians thought their beauty might fade away. And pharaoh would lose his godly food.
Ptah, the chief god of Memphis and considered the creator god, was symbolized by a live bull, known as the Apis bull. This bull also was believed to be the symbol of the River Nile. The Apis bull was cared for just as if he was a god. He was given special food, bathed and brushed daily, and even wore special clothes. When one died, he was mummified and buried just like a pharaoh. There is a tomb in Egypt with nothing but the burial chambers of these Apis bulls. It is estimated that it cost as much as $100,000 to bury one of these bulls. And when one died, the priests would search the entire land to find a calf which met the requirements to be the Apis bull.
With no Apis bull, the Egyptian god Ptah would seem to be very weak. He was supposed to be the creator god.
Boils Exodus 9:8-12
Typhon, Imhotep
Pharaoh was still not convinced that he should let the Israelites leave Egypt. So God told Moses and Aaron to take ashes from a furnace and throw them into the air. The ashes would cover the entire land of Egypt and cause very bad sores to appear on all the Egyptians and their animals. These sores would have infection in them and be very painful.
Moses and Aaron did as they were told. Moses took the ashes that he and Aaron picked up and threw them into the air. Sure enough, the ashes were taken throughout the land of Egypt and every Egyptian and every animal got the very painful and infected sores. The priests hurt so bad they could not even stand before Moses. But Pharaoh was not convinced to let the Israelites leave.
The Egyptians worshipped the god Typhon. Red bulls and very rarely even humans were sacrificed and burned on the grate of Typhon. The sacrifice was given the name Typhos. Then the ashes from the burned sacrifice was taken by the priests and thrown into the air. The Egyptians believed that if any of this ash fell on the skin of a living Egyptian, the person was safe from any defilement (anything that would cause the person to be physically ill and therefore spiritually unclean).
Moses and Aaron did not take the ashes from the furnace of Typhon. The furnace which they took their ashes from was one that the Israelites used to make the mud bricks for the buildings of the Egyptians (the word in the Hebrew is the word for that type furnace). God was showing the Egyptians and particularly Pharaoh that Typhon was powerless. He was showing them that simple ashes from the slave furnaces could be made to have more power by the One True God than ashes from their 'holy' furnaces.
Imhotep
The bad sores would again make the Egyptian priests unclean for their religious practices. This was also a way to show God's power against their god of learning and medicine, Imhotep. Imhotep had been a very wise man and architect many years before the time of Moses. He was regarded very highly when alive and when he died the Egyptians believed he became a god. Imhotep was unable to prevent illness to come upon the Egyptians. Imhotep's wisdom was nothing compared to God's wisdom.
Hail Exodus 9:13-35
Isis, Seth, Nut, Reshpu, Ketesh, Hathor ,Sepes, Shu, and Horus
God sent a very hard hail storm upon the land of Egypt. It is interesting that in Exodus 9:24 the word "grievous" used for the hail storm is the same word in the Hebrew translated "hard" in reference to Pharaoh's heart. This storm was the worst in the history of the land of Egypt. Hail does fall in Egypt but is never bad. Rarely is any damage done to crops. But this hail storm was different. Anyone or anything standing outside was killed. And all the trees were broken. And all the crops were destroyed.
The Egyptians believed that Isis and Seth took care of agricultural production. These two gods made sure that the harvest was plentiful. God showed that he was more powerful than them by destroying two very important crops--flax and barley.
Flax was used in the making of linen. Linen was the material of choice for clothing for most Egyptians. And the priests of Egypt were required to wear linen. They could not wear any other material. Destroying the flax meant that the priests would not have the linen necessary to make "holy" clothes for serving their gods. Also, hundreds of yards of linen were used to wrap the mummies. Without the linen the body could not be properly wrapped for burial. This may have been very serious later when the Pharaoh's first-born son dies and requires royal burial.
Barley was used in making bread. It was particularly used by the poor for this purpose. And barley was one of the main foods given to their animals. The hail not only took away most animals that would be used for food. It took away the grain that the surviving animals would eat. And it took away an important source of food for the people. The gods Seth and Isis were shown to be weak and powerless before the One True God.
The Egyptians worshipped Nut the sky goddess. She was sometimes represented as a woman without clothes stretched across the skies. Her fingers touched one horizon and her toes touched the other. At other times she was represented as a cow standing tall above the sky. People are seen as looking up to her for care and protection from the elements. Nut was also considered by the Egyptians to be the mother of five other gods: Osiris, Hathor, Set, Isis, and Nephthys. This plague of hail demonstrated that Nut had no power before the One True God. God controls the elements because He created them.
The gods Reshpu and Ketesh were also supposed to be involved with controlling the elements and they were shown to be false.
The Egyptians believed that Nut lived in trees. This plague destroyed many of the trees of the land of Egypt. Nut's home was destroyed. She had no where to live.
The gods Hathor and Sepes also lived in trees so they no longer had a place to live. The sun god Ra was believed to appear each morning from between two sycamore trees. The destroying of the trees would hinder Ra's appearing as the Egyptians thought it should be.
During this plague, you have to wonder: Where was Shu, the wind god? Where was Horus, the hawk-headed sky god of Upper Egypt?
Isis and Seth supposedly protected the crops, but the burned fields testified of their impotence. Although this plague would have caused widespread devastation, a few trees remained for the locusts of the next plague to devour.
Locust Exodus 10:1-19
Geb, Osiris and Min
Moses and Aaron once again come to Pharaoh to tell him to let the Israelites leave. They warn him that if he does not let them go that God will bring locusts into Egypt. This will be the worst locust invasion since Egypt had come into existence.
Pharaoh's servants beg him to allow the Israelites to leave. They now believe in the True God. Pharaoh still refuses. So Moses stretches out his hand holding his rod and a strong east wind begins to blow. It will blow for almost a full day and night. The next morning the locusts come.
Locusts can only fly for very long if there is a wind. These locusts must have come from a long distance for it to have taken 24 hours for them to get to Egypt (It has been shown that locusts can travel up to 15 miles per hour with a strong wind). This alone demonstrated to the Egyptians that God was over the world, not just over Egypt.
The locusts eat everything that was left by the hail. They eat every green plant. They eat all the fruit off of the trees. And they eat the leaves and bark of the trees (locusts have been known to even eat the wood). There are so many locusts that the ground cannot even be seen. The locusts completely cover the ground over all Egypt, except where the Israelites are.
Geb was the god of the earth. He is shown as a man with green skin representing the colors of life, the soil and plants. He many times had leaves on his skin. This plague of locusts had just eaten Geb. Geb had no more leaves. Geb instead of being bountiful with plant growth was completely without power. He had no plants of plenty to give to Egypt.
Osiris was a god of the earth and plants. He also was pictured as having green skin. He was considered as helping oversee the plant life. Osiris was also supposedly the god who brought civilization to Egypt. He taught them the art of agriculture. He also taught them how to worship all of the gods. Osiris was helpless before the One True God.
Another god hurt by the locusts was Min. Min was responsible for the growth forces of nature. One of the symbols associated with him was lettuce. At the harvest festivals, Pharaoh would go out in the fields and hoe under Min's watchful eye. The locusts left nothing to harvest. There would be no harvest festival this year. Min had been shown to have no power.
Darkness Exodus 10:21-29
Ra, Khepera, Aten, Aker
God now tells Moses to stretch his hand toward heaven. This would bring a great darkness on the land of Egypt. This darkness would even be felt. The word "felt" means "to grope." This could mean two different things about this plague.
It could mean that the darkness was so intense that a person would have to feel their way around their house. Have you ever been in a room when the light went out? You could not see anything and would have to feel your way along the wall or the floor to move around the room. There was no light of any kind to help see. It is possible this is what the Egyptians were dealing with. They did not leave their homes for three days due to the thick darkness (Exodus 10:21-29). There was no light from the sun or the moon or the stars.
God had demonstrated that he was more powerful than the sun god, Ra. Ra was the father of the gods. He made growth possible on the earth. He lived in a great heavenly boat that made a daily voyage across the sky. Ra could not show himself for three whole days.
Several other gods were also shown to be powerless before God.
Khepera was the god of the rising sun. He rolled the sun along the sky. He could not perform his task in the complete darkness from God.
Aten was the actual sun. He was depicted as a circle with his rays reaching down to earth. He was the nurturing spirit of the world. But he could do no nurturing and he could not send his rays of light and warmth.
Aker was believed to guard the gates of the dawn. He kept the gates free and open so that the sun could rise each morning. He was pictured as two lions sitting back to back with the sun sitting in the sky between them. The Egyptians would place these lions at their doors to guard their homes, tombs, and palaces from evil spirits. They called these statues "sphinxes".
Death of The First Born
Exodus 11-12
Meskhenet, Hathor, Min, Isis, Selket, and Renenutet. This tenth plague was potentially more devastating that all of the other plagues put together. This plague was also very selective—it destroyed only the Egyptians firstborn males, whether human or animal. God told Moses that, “About midnight I will go out into the midst of Egypt; and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the maidservant who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the beasts” (Exo. 11:4–5). The Israelites and the entire male population of the nation were to be exempt from this plague. This plague was too selective to merely be a childhood epidemic.
This plague was directed against “all of the gods of Egypt” (Exo. 12:12) and would show the total inability of the gods of Egypt to protect their subjects. In the face of unparalleled tragedy, “all of the gods of Egypt” were silent. Where was Meskhenet, the goddess who presided at the birth of children? Where was Hathor, one of the seven deities who attended the birth of children? Where was Min, the god of procreation? Where was Isis, the goddess of fertility? Where was Selket, the guardian of life? Where was Renenutet, the cobra-goddess and guardian of Pharaoh?
To Snowbird.
After questioning and unlearning what Christendom and WT taught about God.
When I left the organization I also became curious of other religions. But I followed some good advice. Judge religions by sizing up their originators. Compare Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus ect to each other. Who had the best answers to the questions of life, origin, purpose, value, destiny, ect.
One thing in noticed about religions, they agree when it pertains to how man relates to man, but always disagree how man pertains to the eternal or god. That they have the right path to a higher mode of existence, and everyone else does not.
What did i notice:= that Jesus is right, He is God. What took time was deprogramming what the WTS taught.
and what about the effects of Plato on early Christianity. They didn't get everything from Judaism
To Ruby 456
As Plato said when we come out of the cave by our own efforts we become divine - divinely enlightened - not otherworldly in any way but politically, philosophically and socially aware, edit: food for though eh. In the Republic he advocates aiming for the GOOD as an impersonal good - aiming for goodness in itself.
The logic of chance origins has driven society into rewriting the rules, so that utility has replaced duty, self expression has unseated authority, and being good has become feeling good.
Anything relative will always be subjective. If the meaning of X is being determined by a person or group then the significance of X is being determined by what is subjective, pragmatic or utilitarian. Romans considered Christians insignificant and fed them to the lions for entertainment. It was a utilitarian approach to meaning. It was more meaningful to entertain the crowd then to value one life. Outside of God there cannot be objective meaning.
At the Nuremberg trials, something very interesting came up. When the defendants were question as to why they committed the atrocities, they answered, ‘They were following the law of the land’. And they were. Within their society they broke no law. The prosecutor kept asking if there was a law above our laws.
You do not need God to live moral lives, you can recognize objective moral values and duties without believing in God, but the question is, do objective moral values and duties exist without God? Is not the necessity of belief in God for objective morality is the necessity of the existence of God for objective morality? Your belief in God is not necessary for objective morality, but God is.
Otherwise, everything is subjective, pragmatic or utilitarian.
To ruby 456
and what about the effects of Plato on early Christianity. They didn't get everything from Judaism
And what would that be?
Logos and light and the drive to search for truth and objective goodness
Ruby456
Those are philosophical issues that was addressed by almost every culture. Nothing there that would have been borrowed.
Yes of course this is addressed by every culture.
i am mentioning this because I am reading about PLato at the moment and the ideas seemed to correspond with what I'd learned about Jesus as a witess. Hope y don,t mind me interjecting. I,m not claiming any originary source
Besides plato wasn,t intending to be philosophical in a narrow sense as some of his thought is deeply mystical
another thing atheists also talk about aims to do with goodness as an end in itself. Plato was very adamant regarding goodness as an end in itself.
Outside of God there cannot be objective meaning
That's a big claim.
Do you feel like defending it?
