by towerwatchman 99 Replies latest watchtower bible
To Ruby 456
Any world view has to deals with these four subjects.
· Origin = Where did I come from?
· Meaning = What gives life meaning?
· Morality = How do I differentiate between good and evil?
· Destiny = What happens to a person when they die?
You will see much similarity between different world views, but it Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Greek, or Chinese.
Where it differs is in how man relates to the divine.
To cofty
If rules are determined by society then laws become subjective pragmatic or utilitarian. How do you determine objective morality? Hitler and the Nazis thought they were pragmatic by gassing the Jewish people. Outside of God there is no objective standard of right and wrong. There is no objective reason why man should be moral. Unless morality pays off in his social life or makes him feel good. Moral value, which gives rise to laws are either expressing a personal tastes, or social conditioning. It becomes improbable to condemn war, oppression, or crimes as evil. Nor can you praise generosity, self-sacrifice, and love as good. For in a universe without God, good and evil do not exist, they are only the valueless fact of existence, and no one to objectively say you are right and I am wrong. Since man cannot live like this, he affirms values anyway, and by doing so affirms the inadequacy of a world without God.
I am not asking you to pick YHWH, that is your preference. But what I am telling you is without objective moral values any argument for saving the Christians is just as good as the Romans arguing for throwing them to the lions. Their argument is utilitarian, it serves the greater good. The joy of the masses in the arena far outweighs the life of one person. When everyone's morality becomes subjective, everything becomes permissible even if you permit it or not. Hitler was utilitarian also. The purity of the race far outweighs the life of sub humans. You cannot argue with a Nazi, the value of a Jew based on your personal opinion. There will always have to be objective truth and moral values.
The only objective standard is God. And that is the one I follow. Traditionally our moral duties originated from God's commandments such as the 10 Commandments. But if there is no God what basis remains for objective moral duties. According to the atheist view humans are just animals and animals have no moral obligation to one another. When a bear kills a dear, it kills the dear but does not murder the dear. A great bull forcibly copulate with a female it forces her but does not rape her there is no moral dimension to these actions. They are neither prohibited or obligatory. Certain actions such as incest and rape may not be biologically and socially adventitious and so in the course of human development have become taboo. But that does absolutely nothing to show that rape or incest is really wrong. Such behavior goes on all the time in the animal kingdom. The rapist who goes against the heard morality is doing nothing more serious than acting on fashionably. If there is no moral lawgiver then there is no objective moral law that we must obey.
God is the natural stopping point, He is transcendent, therefore outside the box, and is the best foundation for objective moral values and duties. By definition He is the greatest conceivable being, holiness being one of His attributes, making Him the ground and source of goodness. Being outside the box does not exclude the Moral Lawgiver from any obligation to the moral standard. The Lawgiver cannot be a law breaker but to be truly objective must be and can be outside the box.
towerwatchman
Hitler and the Nazis thought they were pragmatic by gassing the Jewish people
according to you?
God is the natural stopping point, He is transcendent, therefore outside the box, and is the best foundation for objective moral values and duties. By definition He is the greatest conceivable being, holiness being one of His attributes, making Him the ground and source of goodness. Being outside the box does not exclude the Moral Lawgiver from any obligation to the moral standard. The Lawgiver cannot be a law breaker but to be truly objective must be and can be outside the box.
according to you?
A great bull forcibly copulate with a female it forces her but does not rape her there is no moral dimension to these actions. They are neither prohibited or obligatory. Certain actions such as incest and rape may not be biologically and socially adventitious and so in the course of human development have become taboo. But that does absolutely nothing to show that rape or incest is really wrong. Such behavior goes on all the time in the animal kingdom. The rapist who goes against the heard morality is doing nothing more serious than acting on fashionably. If there is no moral lawgiver then there is no objective moral law that we must obey.
once again according to you? need I go on?
edit: but they are all very interesting scenarios you have raised - if only you would break them down into manageable chunks then we could have a discussion.
towerwatchman - Thanks for your reply.
A world in which Nazis don't get to gas millions of innocent people because of their race, is objectively better than Germany of the 30s. The well-being of conscious creatures is a useful basis for objective morality that does not require an ultimate law-giver.
Your proposal that morality needs to be rooted in god doesn't work. How would any of us ever know whether a particular action is a moral good or not? If we follow the bible we would have to conclude that slavery and infanticide is a moral good.
I think in reality christians mostly make moral judgements on the same consequential basis as atheists do. Theists them pretend post hoc that their judgements are approved by the almighty. God is the ultimate sock-puppet.
our moral duties originated from God's commandments such as the 10 Commandments - towerwatchman
Which version of the ten commandments do you base your morality on, the Elohist version at Exodus 20 or the Yahwist version at Exodus 34?
The first version is the best known but the latter is the only one called the "ten words" in the bible.
Exodus 20 ...
1. I am Yahweh your god; you shall not have other gods before my face!
2. You shall not make for yourself a statue or an image.
3. You shall not swear falsely by the name Yahweh, your god
4. Remember the Sabbath day.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet you neighbor’s house.
Exodus 34 ...
1. You shall not bow down to another god; for Yahweh is a jealous god!
2. You shall not make molten gods for yourself.
3. You shall observe the festival of Unleavened bread.
4. You shall redeem every first born of your sons!
5. You shall observe the Sabbath.
6. You shall make a festival of Weeks.
7. Three times a year every male shall appear before Yahweh, god of Israel.
8. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice on leavened bread.
9. You shall bring the firstfruits of your land to the house of Yahweh your god.
10. You shall not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.
And Yahweh said to Moses: “Write these words for yourself, because I’ve made a covenant with you and with Israel based on these words.” And he was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights. He did not eat bread, and he did not drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten words (Ex 34:27-28)
To Ruby 456
Hitler and the Nazis thought they were pragmatic by gassing the Jewish people
according to you?
The Nazis were great a keeping records. It is a fact; that was disclosed at the Nuremberg trials, that it was cheaper and more efficient to have 40 men operate and administrate a camp that can kill 2000- 3000 people per hour vs. shooting them in a pit. As they put it ‘bullets do cost money.”
God is the natural stopping point, He is transcendent, therefore outside the box, and is the best foundation for objective moral values and duties. By definition He is the greatest conceivable being, holiness being one of His attributes, making Him the ground and source of goodness. Being outside the box does not exclude the Moral Lawgiver from any obligation to the moral standard. The Lawgiver cannot be a law breaker but to be truly objective must be and can be outside the box.
according to you?
Curious, so tell me who is transcendent, and therefore outside of the box or equation, that can give us objective moral values?
A great bull forcibly copulate with a female it forces her but does not rape her there is no moral dimension to these actions. They are neither prohibited or obligatory. Certain actions such as incest and rape may not be biologically and socially adventitious and so in the course of human development have become taboo. But that does absolutely nothing to show that rape or incest is really wrong. Such behavior goes on all the time in the animal kingdom. The rapist who goes against the heard morality is doing nothing more serious than acting on fashionably. If there is no moral lawgiver then there is no objective moral law that we must obey.
once again according to you? need I go on?
edit: but they are all very interesting scenarios you have raised - if only you would break them down into manageable chunks then we could have a discussion.
Just pick one. Nothing here is according to me.
To Cofty
Which version of the ten commandments do you base your morality on, the Elohist version at Exodus 20 or the Yahwist version at Exodus 34?
Suggest you recheck your sources. In the 40 years I have been studying scripture this is the first time someone has suggested Ex 34 is an alternative version of the 10 Commandments. If you are going to argue at least start with something credible, BTW my answer is Ex 20. Hint, There is a difference between covenant and commandments.
Exodus 34 is specifically described by Moses as the "Ten Words". Read the chapter in its entirety. It's quite clear.
I'm surprised somebody who claims to have read the Bible didn't know that.
I'm what way is a law against boiling a kid in its mothers milk one of the top ten moral edicts in human history?
Rather than argue about which of the three versions of the ten commandments are authoritative let's focus on my post before that one on the basis of objective morality.
To Cofty
Exodus 34 is specifically described by Moses as the "Ten Words". Read the chapter in its entirety. It's quite clear.
I'm surprised somebody who claims to have read the Bible didn't know that.
I'm what way is a law against boiling a kid in its mothers milk one of the top ten moral edicts in human history?
You are confusing the Law of Moses with the Ten Commandments.
There are two laws that are made crystal clear in the following verses below. Daniel 9:10 is talking about God's law and verse 11 is talking about Moses' law:
"Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets."
"Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him." Daniel 9:10,11
Moses Law; Called "Law contained in ordinances"
EPH. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
Ten Commandments: Called "the Royal law"
JAMES 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Moses Law: Written by Moses in a book
2 CHRON. 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.
Ten Commandments: Written by God on stone
EXO. 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
EXO. 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
Moses Law: Placed in the side of the ark
DEUT. 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Ten Commandments: Placed inside the ark
EXO. 40:20 And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:
Moses Law: Ended at the cross
EPH. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
Ten Commandments: Will stand forever
LUKE 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Moses Law: Added because of sin
GAL. 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Ten Commandments: Points out sin
ROM. 7:7 What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
ROM. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Moses Law: Contrary to us, against us
COL. 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
Ten Commandments: Not grievous
1 JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Moses Law: Judges no man
COL. 2:14-16 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Ten Commandments: Judges all men
JAM. 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Moses Law: Carnal
HEB. 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Ten Commandments: Spiritual
ROM. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Moses Law: Made nothing perfect
HEB. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Ten Commandments: Perfect
PSALMS 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Hope it helps
TWM
