What would happen if the religion just straight out gets outed as bad? The ORG admits to it and all the members get told to disperse

by Starlight.vee 52 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Let's just make a list here of things you will NOT hear at a JW Convention:

    1. Jesus predicted that he would ressurect himself from the dead and then did it.

    2. Jesus said that if you didn't have his spirit living inside of you, you were none of his.

    3. Jesus said "Come to Me", not Jehovah or an organization.

    4. Jesus said he had all power in heaven and earth.

    5. Jesus instructed people to ask him for everlasting life... "Ye have not because ye ask not".

    6. Jesus said that he and the father were one in the same.

    7. Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone else in the Bible. He referred to it as a place of “outer darkness” where “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” In other words, all the joys that we associate with light will be withdrawn, and all the fears that we associate with darkness will be multiplied. And the result will be an intensity of misery that makes a person grind his teeth in order to bear it..... forever & ever, & ever, & ever.

    Like I said, Hitlers speeches were fast paced and informational too. They were very inspirational. Only later did the world (too late) find out how deadly the whole thing was.

    The WT is at least as deadly as Hitler in ruining people's futures.

  • Duran
    Duran
    4. Jesus said he had all power in heaven and earth.

    Where did he say that, was it here at Matthew 28:18 where he said it had been given to him?

    Who gave it to him?

    6. Jesus said that he and the father were one in the same.

    Where did he say that, was it here at John 17:22 where he also said for his disciples to be one?

    Does that mean that they are all one in the same (same person), not individuals?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Duran,

    I once had shoulder surgery and had to give ALL my strength, might and works to my left arm while my right arm was healing.

    It really doesn't matter how he got it does it? That's not the point. As usual, heretics miss the clear and plain point of any scripture they don't like. Jesus has all power and authority in heaven and earth, that's what scripture says. You cannot change that scripture no matter how badly you want to. All means ALL.

    By the way, do you have a problem allowing an angel into your being? In other words, are you willing to allow an angel to posess you? Because, according to WT theology, that's what it will take to get saved. - "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ HE IS NONE OF HIS".

    My Father and I are one.”
    31 Again the Jews took up stones to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
    33 The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, claim to be God.

    Everyone there understood Jesus was claiming to be God here. He did other things to prove he was God too, you know - little things, like raise himself from the dead, while he was dead.

    He forgave people's sins, somethiong ONLY GOD can do. When questioned about this seeming blasphemous declaration, he asked a simple question; "which is easier to do, forgive somone's sins or tell this lame man here to get up and walk? It really was useless to question Jesus' Godship when talking to him. He'd just do another "impossible" miracle if you did. It must have been remarkable to see him in action, in the flesh.

    In other words, just running around declaring you are God would do nothing. Lots of people have done that over the years. But, Jesus did things ONLY God could do. That's why Jesus is declared in scripture to be "God manifest in the flesh" (KJV, MEV, NKJV, LITV) as recorded in the vast majority of ancient bible manuscripts.

    Here's some of the early Christian leaders, some trained directly by an apostle that quoted this verse and referred to Jesus as "God manifest in the flesh":

    1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Church Fathers

  • Duran
    Duran
    It really doesn't matter how he got it does it? That's not the point. As usual, heretics miss the clear and plain point of any scripture they don't like. Jesus has all power and authority in heaven and earth, that's what scripture says.

    Sure, it matters how he got that power/authority, that is the whole point. The Scripture says it was given to him. So, the question is who gave it to him? Matt 28:18;1 Corinthians 15:24-28

    Everyone there understood Jesus was claiming to be God here.

    They claimed he was claiming that, and he corrected them.

    [ 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

    My Father and I are one.”

    [ 30 I and the Father are one.”]

    [11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.]

    By the way, do you have a problem allowing an angel into your being? In other words, are you willing to allow an angel to posess you?

    It is God's spirit that Jesus has and that we are to have, so to have Jesus' spirit, is to have God's spirit.

    [ 16 After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”]

    [ 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God9 However, you are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this person does not belong to him. 11 If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.]

    And YES Jesus is an angel.

    [ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.]

    [29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

    [ 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Duran, Duran, Duran,

    I put in thousands of hours in field service arguing WT doctrine before I decided to just let the word speak in its totality. You are looking for possible exceptions and then trying to make a solid Christian doctrine out of it, even it requires ignoring dozens of other scriptures to do it.

    And YES Jesus is an angel.


    [ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet

    What if I reported in a newspaper article that such and such talented dynamic speaker had the voice of a freight train. No one would suspect that I was saying that the orator was actually a freight train! It is talking about the nature of the voice - "commanding", similar to an arch-angel.

    Duran,

    If you really believed Jesus was just a spirit, would you invite him into your being to possess you? Why won't you answer as to whether or not you have "obediently" done this? What are you hiding?

  • Duran
    Duran
    If you really believed Jesus was just a spirit

    What is your weirdness in Jesus being a spirit? He is and so is Jehovah and Satan and all other angels. John 4:24;1 Corinthians 15:45;Hebrews 1:14

    It is talking about the nature of the voice - "commanding", similar to an arch-angel.

    There are 3 'withs' here and each are separate:

    [ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet]

    The reason he has an archangel's voice is because he (Jesus) is the archangel Michael. He is directing his angels to gather his chosen ones.

    [31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

    [7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]

    [7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled]

    _______________

    Funny how you say nothing about Jesus' correcting them saying he was God's son when they were trying to say that he was making himself god.

    Also, you try to pass off John 10:30 as if Jesus and Jehovah are the same and yet crickets from you when it comes to:

    [11 ... so that they may be one just as we are one.]

    Who is 'we' referring to?

    [we - used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people considered together:]

    And I am still waiting to hear who gave Jesus the authority in heaven and on earth?


  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Duran,

    Just explain how you can get saved. The bible commands Christians to be able to give an answer to anyone who demands a reason for the hope that is in you. It's a good test to see if someone is deluded. Do you really have no idea ? I believe, you do. I suspect that like most all heretics, you just don't like they way Jesus wants to do it.... where you are not able to contribute one iota towards your salvation, other than belief. The bible says all we can do is receive it. That's the part you don't like. Like all my JW relatives, you cant image sharing the planet with people who love Jesus and realize there is NOTHING they can personally do to change their condemnation other than RECEIVE the pardon Jesus offered.

    The only problem is, since you believe the Satanic lie that Jesus is really an angel, you are having a hard time allowing yourself to be posessed by this angel you call Jesus. And, that is quite understandable, since this is definitely condemned in the bible.

    As I keep pointing out, the bible says if we do not have the spirit of Jesus living inside us, we "are NONE of his".

    With your theology, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. For people really wanting to personally posess power over death, this delimma would be a major wake up call. This delimma, would drive them to rexamine their assumptions.

    Since you obviously reject the spirit of Chist to live inside of you, and the bible says that if you don't, you don't belong to Jesus. If you don't belong to Jesus, why should anyone learn Christian doctrine from a non-Christian?

    It dosn't make any sense. No one will listen to anything you have to say if you cannot explain from the bible how you are saved.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    "Like the ORG just gives up and comes out saying that all of what they are saying is untrue and that there is no Armageddon, nothing. "

    All of that is not a JW only thing. There are other religions that teach that.

  • Duran
    Duran
    The bible commands Christians to be able to give an answer to anyone who demands a reason for the hope that is in you. It's a good test to see if someone is deluded.

    Exactly and yet you fail to give answers to what I asked you above and to the other 5 questions I asked here.

    You spend the time replying back with all the nonsense you wrote above, but you could have easily taken that time to answer what I asked if you know the answers. Instead, you evade and deflect from answering by going on a rant and then trying to make it about me answering something that you asked even though it was YOU that came in on a topic started by 'lastmanstanding' and started talking your rapture nonsense. You are the one that needs to answer to defend what you believe, not me.

    That said, I did answer you on what it takes to get saved during the 8th king's rule and that is to refuse to take the MOTB/refuse to support him, be willing to not be able to buy/sell, be taken captive and even killed. WHY? Because in doing so you would be showing/proving your faith in Jehovah and Jesus and their kingdom that will come after the 8th king 42-month rule/GT.

    Refusing the MOTB will make one part of the great crowd and that is whom God spreads his tent over. And some among them will be ones that rule with Jesus. (All these will be saved/everlasting life.) All that take the MOTB, including the beast/8th king himself will receive God's wrath after the 42-month rule. (All these will have everlasting cutoff/will not be saved.) 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 / 8th king rule

    Because I believe that all references to Jesus' coming occur after the 42 month/GT of the 8th king, then anything that I say about being saved only applies to what I just said about refusing the MOTB/the 8th king. All that died prior to the 8th king 'hour of judgment from God' will be resurrected and still have a chance at everlasting life with those that already will have it. John 5:28,29

    Because it is you that says there is a rapture due to Jesus coming prior to the 8th king rule, it is you who should answer questions to defend that notion.

    And because I believe that Jehovah and Jesus are two different individuals, and you believe they are the same person, it is you who has to explain who gave Jesus that authority and how they (apostles) are to be 'one' just as Jehovah and Jesus are 'one' and why Jesus himself said he is God's son.

    Everyone there understood Jesus was claiming to be God here.

    Funny how you side with the unbelieving Jews who wanted to stone Jesus. You use their false claim of saying Jesus was the one claiming to be god and yet you don't take Jesus at his word and that of John and a voice from heaven that he is God's son.

  • KerryKing
    KerryKing

    Inspired:

    This moving little word may be traced back to the Latin inspirare (“to breathe or blow into”), which itself is from the word spirare, meaning “to breathe.” It didn't take long to establish itself in a figurative sense, as our earliest written English uses of inspire give it the meaning “to influence, move, or guide (as to speech or action) through divine or supernatural agency or power.” Many of the early figurative senses of inspire are religious in nature, so it is not surprising to learn that the word shares a connection with spirit (which comes from the Latin word for “breath,” spiritus, which is also from spirare).

    I believe that to have the spirit of Christ is to be inspired by him, not possessed, which would involve removing your free will and coming under another's influence.

    We are debating about ancient languages that nobody speaks anymore, which have been badly translated by people who were not inspired nor did they ever claim to be. Translators translated fragments of documents as best they could, and added things in from time to time, like some tiny changes to support a trinity doctrine for example, and translators kept translating over hundreds of years until we got to modern languages which don't even have equivalent words to literally translate the texts.

    I speak 4 languages, modern languages, and it's impossible to translate one from above word for word, that gets 100x more difficult when you're dealing with ancient 'dead' languages.

    Yes the word of God was inspired by God, but the translators were not, neither were the apostates who put together the bible canon and for 1500 years only circulated the KJV with its little Catholic add ons, and God allowed all of that.

    So is it really useful to bicker and debate over single words and phrases when noone can prove one way or another which part is truly from God himself?

    Jesus said we'd worship in spirit and truth, not in the detail of doctrine. He said his disciples would be recognised by the love they have for each other.

    To be inspired by Jesus, is to be full of his spirit of love, to observe the 2 main commandments, and to put faith in Jesus as our Saviour . There are no hidden messages or secrets that require great intellect, or hours of debate , Jesus said a child could understand this.

    It is simple.

    Peace and love to all .

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit