by Simon 45 Replies latest social current
The reason I mentioned America was that they were the ones asking for overflight / basing rights in Turkey and have been negotiating with them. I presume therefore that they would have some influence or input into what they did and got the impression from the news that the two things were very much combined.
ie. "We'll let you fly over our air-space to bomb Iraq if you let us into northern Iraq to deal with the kurds."
COMF it shouldn't defy your logic to understand the concept of a well informed voting electorate. In the USA, for better or worse anyone potential voter (or potential soldier for that matter.. I can't remember if the US Armed forces currently allow former felons to enlist, anyway I digress) is an integral part of the government, because he elects the government and he SHOULD stay informed. The concept of vote-and-hands-off went away with the demise of the Federalist party sometime in the early 19th century. An uneducated electorate lends itself towards extremism. Bush is a borderline fascist. My only point of comfort about the man is that he did not win the popular vote in 2000.
Back to the question you asked. I already addressed why succintly but I will return to it, again. The Kurdish-Turkish problem didn't happen in some isolated cave. Certainly many Europeans knew about it. Turkey is a NATO partner and the matter should have been better understood. It wasn't. Iraq AND Turkey have been getting medieval on the Kurds for ages, but this has increased a great deal in the nineties. The fact that Bush I (and to some degree Clinton) used the Iraqi Kurds to their own ends and then left them to basically be slaughtered by Saddam was not spoken about in traditional American media for a number of reasons. One is that NBC, CNN, ABC, and CBS, along with the newer agencies, realized all along that keeping a lot of international coorespondants and branch offices in the world is expensive. They cut back. At the same time the news was becoming more oriented around heart-string tugger. You know, baby trapped in a well, pretty rich white kid abducted, your Tax Dollers Wasted, sniper in Fairfax, and so on. It was cheaper and got more people interested. It takes a very dramatic event to get CNN interested in paying Ms Amanpour's travel tickets. The wire services still provided stories but mostly these were relegated to three inch column stories, The situation was so terrible that events in East Timor took everyone in America by complete suprise.
So.. the How part. There are other avenues of finding out information. You simply have to look for it. I am not expecting everyone to become well versed on everything. That is silly. But if you are prepare to go in a country, raise hell and kill a bunch of people, you should know the whole story. If you don't know the whole story, what seperated you from any other mindless jingoistic imperialist killer?
Wow.
Picturing COMF as a "mindless jingoistic imperialist killer." Dayum. Seemed like such a nice feller, too. Just goes to show-ya...
(I can't remember if the US Armed forces currently allow former felons to enlist, anyway I digress)
It's digression with a purpose, of course, since it could have been effortlessly deleted if you so chose. The irrelevant detour into soldiering is a tool to introduce felon status into the discussion. To what end? It has no connection with the subject, as you acknowledge by saying "I digress". Yet you leave it. Would you like to say something about my credibility? Don't beat around the bush, man. Come on out with it.
In the USA, for better or worse anyone potential voter is an integral part of the government, because he elects the government and he SHOULD stay informed.
You see, you could have avoided the whole little dance around soldiering and just stuck with the voting issue. Felons can't vote, gitasatsangha. You apparently are uninformed on that, aren't you. Well, so much for the "integral part of the government" argument.
The Kurdish-Turkish problem didn't happen in some isolated cave. Certainly many Europeans knew about it.
Yes, one would expect Europeans to know about it, since it's happening in their back yard. A couple gallons of water and some cumulonimbus clouds separate the USA from there, however. I know when my next door neighbors are having a domestic squabble. I don't know when the folks in the next subdivision do. Nor do I go around that neighborhood asking, "Hey! I'm from over off of Hampton Road. Anybody around here having screaming knockdown-dragouts lately?"
...was not spoken about in traditional American media for a number of reasons.
Yes.
At the same time the news was becoming more oriented around heart-string tugger. You know, baby trapped in a well, pretty rich white kid abducted, your Tax Dollers Wasted, sniper in Fairfax, and so on.
Be sure to blame "most Americans" for this. After all, we have every bit as much say about what gets on the news as we do about who the US armed forces attack.
So.. the How part. There are other avenues of finding out information. You simply have to look for it.
See above remark about next-subdivision neighbors. I'm not likely to order a subscription to the Baghdad Times-Herald on the off chance there may be a story in there about local border skirmishes. Nor am I prone to running internet searches on the gamut of middle eastern tribal names coupled with the keywords "getting" and "medieval".
But if you are prepare to go in a country, raise hell and kill a bunch of people, you should know the whole story.
This is the crux of the matter. You blur the lines of responsibility. I, like "most Americans" (your original target and the phrase that started all this) am not going into a country, raising hell and killing a bunch of people. We ("most Americans") did not propose it. We did not authorize it. We did not march into the country. I'm still sitting right here in south Dallas in my home at my computer. I'm not killing anybody.
Assuming that "most Americans" are not felons and therefore can vote and be an "integral part of the government", here's your vision of Joe American back at election time: "Say, honey, before we vote... has it ever occurred to you that in a year or so middle eastern terrorists might launch a surprise attack on the USA, suddenly riveting the attention of the world on,,, oh, I don't know.... let's just say for the sake of argument, Afghanistan and Iraq? And that the president might then declare war and send troops in? It could happen, you know. We must think about that carefully as we cast our votes for president. And I think while we're at it, I'll do some boning up on how Turkey treats its neighbors. I can't think why, but for some odd reason that seems relevant to what I just said."
If you don't know the whole story, what seperated you from any other mindless jingoistic imperialist killer?
Um... the fact that I don't kill?
If you'll explain how "most Americans"' knowing or not knowing "the whole story" affects anything the US armed forces do regarding Turkey and Kurds, maybe I can give you a better answer. Right now I'm unable to see a connection.
Come on, gitasatsangha. You must make a stand before the jingoistic imperial killer.
Yes, the United States is unpardonably guilty for not saving everybody on earth from themselves.
COMF, nobody is accusing the US of not doing enough. the problem that people have with the US gov. is the screaming hypocrisy! on one hand the US supports the greatest criminals in history without the slightest remorse...on the other hand they go to war with someone who hasn'T done anything against the US. In case of iraq they say they want to bring peace and democracy...in case of saudi arabia or israel or turkey or pol pot or stalin or (endless list) they give a shit about human rights or democracy! this is about OIL and not about bringing freedom to opressed people!
