Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

Vidqun

Duran, if you can present me a scripture that says the GT is 42 months, I'll believe. The scripture you are referring to, says nothing of the sort. Note what it says: "And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it." (Rev. 13:5 NW) Nothing about the GT there. And that the GT might be cut short, is clearly stated at Matt. 24:22; Mark 13:20.
Where do I get my 7 years from? Mainly from the book of Daniel as I'll demonstrate. It's quite a mouthful. Each segment on its own might be lacking coherence and seem unconvincing, but as a whole the different aspects do contribute to a complete picture.
First clue: God works in heptads, i.e., sevens. E.g., creative days. 3 ½, half of that, means unfinished business.
Second clue: The outer courtyard of the temple sanctuary, a part of the Israel of God, is to be trampled by the nations for 42 months. IMO this will happen during the second half of the GT. See later. (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 11:2; cf. Dan. 7:25; 12:7; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 2:21, 22).
Third clue: Daniel’s time, times and half a time, which is 3 ½ years. Daniel’s “time, and times and half a time” covers the second half of the Tribulation because at the end of it the eleventh horn, having plucked up three horns, is destroyed at Armageddon (Daniel 7:8, 21, 25; cf. 12:7).
The two prophets will be prophesying for 1,260 days. Their public ministry will start immediately after the sixth trumpet blast (Rev. 9:13; 11:3). 1,260 days will then overlap with the 42 months of trampling, which starts in the middle of the Tribulation period. They will be announcing the 10 plagues, which will be starting during the 6th trumpet blast (Rev. 9:18, 20; 15&16).
Fourth clue: Second half of Tribulation is 1,260 days. Daniel 8. Vision of the 2,300 evening-mornings. To cut a long story short. Evening-morning: 1) The two nouns are singular. 2) Lit. an “evening-morning” time unit (not time, year or day), resulting in a most unusual time scale. 3) Evening in Hebrew means when the sun goes down. Morning means first light, when the sun comes up, until midday when the sun is at its zenith. Afternoon, when the day starts to fade, is not part of the equation. 4) One evening-morning is therefore 18/24 hours = ¾ of a day. 2300 evening-morning x ¾ = 1725 days. This literal interpretation does not deviate from Hebrew usage (Ex. 12:6, 10; 16:8-13; 27:21a; cf. 1 Kings 17:6).
I view the trumpet blasts and plagues as the GT proper. That means 7 trumpet blasts x 180 days = 1,260 days. Same goes for the vials of plague, 7 vials x 180 days = 1,260 days. The calculation therefore works as follows: 360 days + 1,260 days + 105 days = 1,725 days, i.e., 6th and 7th trumpet blast + second half of GT + Day of the LORD = 1,725 days.
Fifth and final clue: Dan. 12:11, 12
The final chapter of Daniel should be seen within the context of the Great Tribulation, this from the vantage of the victorious King of the North (cf. Dan. 11:40-44; 12:1, 4, 7, 10). The sum of the two periods of Dan. 12:11, 12 is longer than a Heptad. As seen, a Heptad is 7 years or 2,520 days long. 1,290 days + 1,335 days = 2,625 days. 2,625 days – 2,520 days of the Great Tribulation = 105 days. This is the equivalent of 3½ months (the end of the Tribulation to Armageddon, the closing chapter called the LORD’s Day). See Zech 14:1, 6, 7. According to this reckoning the beast will become king on day 1,290. I see its reign to be less than 1,335 days, during which it will be destroyed (cf. Rev. 17:8, 11).
Duran, there will be a repetition of celestial events: Seal 6: Rev. 6:12-17. Fourth trumpet blast: 8:12. During Jesus' Second Coming: Matt. 24:29. Armageddon: Zech. 14:6, 7.
Duran

Duran, if you can present me a scripture that says the GT is 42 months, I'll believe. The scripture you are referring to, says nothing of the sort. Note what it says: "And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it." (Rev. 13:5 NW) Nothing about the GT there.
LOL! Are you kidding around with me? I didn't just cite Rev 13:5, I cited Matthew, Luke, and John to show what and how long the GT is. Here they are again, and I will include Mark.

[17 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 18 Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime; 19 for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again. 20 In fact, unless Jehovah* had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen, he has cut short the days.]
[19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.]
[23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]
Duran, there will be a repetition of celestial events: Seal 6: Rev. 6:12-17
As I said, that corresponds to Matt 24:29 but regardless of if you accept that or not, in regard to the 6th seal celestial event it clearly states there that those seeing are hiding because the day of wrath has come from the one on the throne and from his Lamb. What do you say that day of wrath is?
Vidqun

As I said, you're conflating scriptures. Days of the tribulation? Jerusalem was a tribulation for the Jews for three and a half years, give or take a few months. This one coming is the greatest tribulation ever! It cannot be compared to Jerusalem's fall. It will be much, much worse. Now we come to your forty two months. God's people will be protected from the trumpet blasts and plaques (cf. Rev. 7:9, 14). Temple is measured and belongs to God. But the leadership of God's people (the dining rooms of the priests were in the courtyard) will be persecuted for 42 months. Half of them will be killed (cf. Zech. 14:2). Nevertheless, you cannot conflate these scriptures without good reason. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
con•flate \kən-ˈflāt\ verb transitive
con•flat•ed; con•flat•ing [Latin conflatus, past participle of conflare to blow together, fuse, from com- + flare to blow—more at BLOW] 1610
1 a: to bring together: FUSE
b: CONFUSE
2: to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole
con•fla•tion \-ˈflā-shən\ noun
15th century: BLEND, FUSION especially: a composite reading or text
Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary. (Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).
Duran

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
I guess for now for whatever reason.
God's people will be protected from the trumpet blasts and plaques (cf. Rev. 7:9, 14). Temple is measured and belongs to God. But the leadership of God's people (the dining rooms of the priests were in the courtyard) will be persecuted for 42 months.
Who are God's people now? Who are the leadership of them?
Will God's people have to choose between taking or refusing the MOTB?
Who persecutes the so-called leadership during the 42-months?
Also, what about what I asked you here:
As I said, that corresponds to Matt 24:29 but regardless of if you accept that or not, in regard to the 6th seal celestial event it clearly states there that those seeing are hiding because the day of wrath has come from the one on the throne and from the Lamb. What do you say that day of wrath is?
Vidqun

Revelation discusses God's day of wrath. Not one day but a period of time. In it will take place God's judgments and the execution thereof. As you will see, the following is to take place before Armageddon, the finalization of God's day of wrath, not one day either (Rev. 6:16, 17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15).
If you read the scriptures in Joel and Acts you would have worked it out. Those scriptures have only been partially fulfilled in the 1st century. E.g., the heavenly phenomena. Note the apostles translated "In the afterwards" (Joel) as "In the last days" (Acts). This all "before the illustrious day of Jehovah arrives." I see a Christian revival in other scriptures to do with the "two witnesses," but that's another story. Suffice to say, God will unite His people. I believe it will happen soon:
28 And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy. As for YOUR old men, dreams they will dream. As for YOUR young men, visions they will see.
29 And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit.
30 And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
31 The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.
32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling.
(Joel 2:28-32)
17 And in the last days, God says, I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams;
18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist;
20 the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.
(Acts 2:17-21 NW)
Vidqun

PetrW, coming back to your questions.
1. the Beast ascends into the sea (13:1) whole, including all 7 heads, and the Beast (not the head) is also cast into the lake of fire (19,20).
2. Rev. 1:1 ("what must come to pass") and 1:3 "the time is at hand" delineate apocalyptic events into the future. How is it possible that John is writing about the future but actually sees the past? Real but extinct e.g. Assyria, how does that affect the future?
What does Egypt, Assyria and Medo-Persia got to do with the price of eggs? To answer these type of questions, I always refer back to the book of Daniel. Here God presents us with a world view. First the dream image with its dfferent levels of metal. However you want to interpret it, it comes to an end with Armageddon. Then God's kingdom under Christ Jesus takes over (cf. Dan. 2:44, 45).
Within this context, one finds the vision of the four beasts. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. From Rome comes the small horn, taking out three of the horns. IMO this is the British Empire, taking out its three main competitors, France, Spain and the Netherlands. The blaspheming horn becomes huge, becoming the Anglo-American Empire. Above prophecies follow the course of history, so the information from God's book of truth is reliable (cf. Dan. 10:21).
This is the background. Now we come to the book of Revelation. The Revelation beasts would follow the same pattern and I view these as a continuation of the Daniel beasts. Put them all together and you have the full picture, history in advance. The full compliment of Satan's political system is to come to an end, to make room for God's kingdom. I like to work with Biblical definitions, e.g., the antichrist. I prefer John's definition, and not those who want to make up their own definition and meaning. As to the origin of the beasts, the following helped me:
From the sea: Isaiah (27:1) describes how God will execute the elusive serpent or sea monster. According to BDBLex the mighty, multi-headed “Leviathan” symbolizes world-powers, e.g., Egypt (Ps. 74:13, 14; cf. Ezek. 32:2-12). Job (3:8, 9; 26:12, 13) refers to it as the fleeing serpent or eclipse dragon. This concept was further developed by later writers. Daniel’s four beasts come up from the sea (Dan. 7:2, 3). One of Revelation’s beasts also comes up from the sea (Rev. 13:1). What does the sea picture in these instances? Isaiah (57:20) explains: “But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.” [This is the sea that will be no more (cf. Rev. 21:1).] In confirmation of this, the harlot, riding the scarlet-colored wild beast, is also described as sitting upon “many waters” (Rev. 17:1-3). Again, what is the meaning of the “many waters”? One of the angels with the seven bowls explains: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues” (Rev. 17:1, 15).
From the earth: The false prophet is also called beast from the earth (Rev. 13:11; 16:13). What does earth mean in this instance? Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image had legs of iron, yet feet and toes mixed with iron and an earthy substance, clay. Hard and unyielding iron points to dictatorial, totalitarian regimes, whereas brittle clay pictures aging democratic structures (cf. Dan. 2:41-43). The governments represented by the false prophet, i.e., the Anglo-American empire, originating from the earth, would mainly consist of democratic elements (cf. Dan. 8:23, 24). During the First and Second World War, it would be this earth that would come to the aid of God’s woman and her children [= those of His anointed on earth] to save them from the serpent’s deluge of persecution (Rev. 12:15, 16).
From the abyss: In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. The abyss can be favorably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). God allows the beast to come up out of the abyss (of inactivity) (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). But who is it that controls the abyss? A star (or angel) of God has the key to unlock the abyss, unleashing a plague of locust-scorpions, the soldiers of the beast, to torment mankind (Rev. 1:20; 9:1-3). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in this abyss (of inactivity) for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).
Duran

Revelation discusses God's day of wrath. Not one day but a period of time.
In it will take place God's judgments and the execution thereof.
[17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]
The 'appointed time' of judgment starts with the house of God. That time is the 42-month rule of the 8th king. Then AFTER the 42-months the judgment of the nations.
[17 Between the porch and the altar Let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say:‘ Do feel pity, O Jehovah, for your people; Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, Letting the nations rule over them. Why should the peoples say, “Where is their God?”’]
[24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]
[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
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[24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]
[31 When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.]
[7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]
[1“For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather together all the nations And bring them down to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat. I will enter into judgment with them there In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations,And they divided up my land among themselves.]
Kosonen

We are in expectation of the revealing of the 7 headed beast of Revelation 13. When we get to know its name, if we have enough wisdom we will be able to calculate its name's number 666.
Death stroke to one of its heads is of course not the same as the beast that entirely goes into the abyss. UN will go into the abyss for a while. Nations are so divided in UN about the war in Israel. So UN will become absolete for a while. Instead an other beast will emerge that is more a financial beast. The 7 headed beast of Revelation 13 which will set up a system that will require its mark for money transactions. All governments seem to be in agreement on that.
Duran

[3 And he carried me away in the power of the spirit into a wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 7 So the angel said to me: “Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world. 9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction. 12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”]
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[1 And it stood still upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. 3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.] [19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.]
Duran

[21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

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