Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

Duran

Enter the "man of lawlessness." This group will be infiltrating God's people similar to the group that infiltrated first century Christians after the death of the apostles.
That is not the case, and it is clear that you are not concern with what the Scriptures actually state. The MOL is said to be in God's temple exalting himself and the KOTN/DT is said to be in the holy place exalting himself. The MOL comes to his end by Jesus and so does the KOTN. You can't have two entities in the temple/holy place at the same time both said to be exalting themselves above the other.
Connected with the apostasy/LIE from the MOL is judgment. It says those that believe the LIE/apostasy will perish/not be saved. It says of those they believe the LIE was because they did not love the truth.
Connected with the beast (who also comes to his end when Jesus comes) is the mark which is a judgment to those that take it/support the beast will get God's wrath (perish/not be saved).
In regard to the KOTN as you pointed out verse 35 mentions doing a refining/cleansing/whitening. That is because that is the GT/42-months and during such time is when what will be the great crowd, that is when they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
Hour of judgment. Within the context and general scheme of things, this final warning would be given, therefore must be referring to Armageddon.
1 Pet. 4:17 Not sure of this one. Let me think about it.
The "hour of judgement' or 'hour of test' is a symbolic 'hour' and is referring to the GT/42-months. The test is as to whether you take the mark/support Satan's beast/8th king/kingdom, or if you refuse the mark in support of God's kingdom allowing yourself to be killed/captive during the 42-months. That is when the holy city/place/temple is said to be trampled. That time is the judgment that starts with the house of God.
Vidqun

Duran, tell me about the temple. What do you think this is?
Duran

No physical place, no one religion. It is made up of all people around the world who are the wheat/sheep. These ones will refuse the 'mark' and therefore make up the great crowd and some from them rule with Jesus.
Vidqun

Duran, yes, here we are on the same page. I also see it as that. Many in Christendom want a third temple to be built. The followng scriptures explain the real meaning of the temple. If one understands this, a lot of things start making sense.
16 Do YOU not know that YOU people are God's temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?
17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are. (1 Cor. 3:16, 17)
16 And what agreement does God's temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said, I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people. (2 Cor. 6:16)
21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.
22 In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit. (Eph. 2:21, 22)
6 For it is contained in Scripture, Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.
7 It is to YOU, therefore, that he is precious, because YOU are believers; but to those not believing, the identical stone that the builders rejected has become [the] head of [the] corner,
8 and a stone of stumbling and a rock-mass of offense. These are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were also appointed. (1 Pet. 2:6-8)
Just about the contents, sequence and length of the GT that we differ. I follow in the main the natural chronology of Revelation, with a few exceptions. This I compared to Jesus' sermon on the Mount, especially Matthew's version. You construct your timeline according to events. So as time progresses, we will see what actually transpires.
Are you aware that 42 months = 1,260 days = time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 (prophetic) years? One month = 30 days. Daniel and John in Revelation use the same time keeping standard. And both Hebrew and Greek dictionaries confirm this.
On the other hand, seven means heavenly perfection. I will hold on to my seven years, until I am proven wrong. What puts me off from the seven years number is that Christendom also believe in a seven year tribulation period based on Daniel (9:27). Here I believe they are in error. The seventy weeks of Daniel is a unit which can be proved by grammar. So, the seventy weeks applies exclusively to Jesus' first coming. As you might have noticed, I use a different method of calculation.
Hour of judgment = GT/42-months? According to the book of Revelation, an hour is a relatively short period of time, definitely not 42 months. [Rev. 3:3; 11:13; 14:7, 15; 17:12; 18:10, 17, 19]
Hour of judgment is about to start (Rev. 14:7). Next he discusses the fall of Babylon and the fate of those worshipping the beast. In v. 14, we read of the son of man and the great harvest which is Armageddon. I believe the GT would have run its course by then.
The following is the only mention of “hour of test” in the book of Revelation. The following assurance was given to the first century congregation of Philadelphia: “Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth, to put a test upon those dwelling on the earth.” (Rev. 3:7, 10)
Duran

The followng scriptures explain the real meaning of the temple.
Just wondering if you click the hyperlinks in my replies?
Are you aware that 42 months = 1,260 days = time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 (prophetic) years?
Very aware.
Hour of judgment = GT/42-months? According to the book of Revelation, an hour is a relatively short period of time, definitely not 42 months.
The time period here is referring to the 42-months. You are caught up on the use of 'hour' instead of 'time', but what you should be focused on are the words that follow, hour/time.
5610. hóra - a time or period, an hour
[ 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]
Without focusing on hour/time, what is the judgment that starts with the house of God?
[ 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the time of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”]
What judgment from God takes place there?
[ 10 Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the time of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]
What is the test that is going to be put upon all dwelling on the earth?
Kosonen

Mainly this will be the test:
Revelation 14:9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.
Vidqun

Without focusing on hour/time, what is the judgment that starts with the house of God?
This does not concern me at this stage. First the house must be constituted, then the judgment will start there. As yet I don't see God's house being established.
He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the time of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.”] What judgment from God takes place there?
By this time, God's judgment is between Him and His enemies (Armageddon).
What is the test that is going to be put upon all dwelling on the earth?
As said, here Jesus is reassuring the first century Philadelphian congegation. As far as I know, it doesn't exist anymore. What was the test? Your guess is as good as mine.
Duran

First the house must be constituted, then the judgment will start there. As yet I don't see God's house being established.
Are you kidding me? You yourself said, 'we are on the same page', and you cited Scriptures to what God's house/temple/holy place is. It has been being constructed since the first century. When the 8th king receives his 42-month authority all people will be in subjection too him, but true wheat/sheep (God's people) will refuse that authority and thereby suffer tribulation (captivity/death) by the 8th king during that time. In that sense that is how/when God's house is trampled on. This serves as the judgement that first starts with God's house. During that time ALL people (that refuse the mark) regardless of their lack of understanding now and their many different beliefs, they will be refined together during that time and end up on the same page/same understanding.
Notice here in Joel's account the nations are said to be ruling over God's people and they are considered to be captives during that time. That is the judgment that first starts with God's people, then after the 42- month captivity/GT, the said captives are rescued/brought down to the said low plain (Armageddon) and the nations are gathered together to be judged at that time.
@Kosonen
Mainly this will be the test:
Revelation 14:9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”
Correct!
Duran

As said, here Jesus is reassuring the first century Philadelphian congegation. As far as I know, it doesn't exist anymore. What was the test? Your guess is as good as mine.
If anyone has an ear, let him hear:
There was no such test* that came upon the world back then. This applies to the future and Jesus is talking to those that will rule with him. They need to conquer. Conquer what? Going through the GT under the 8th king 42-month rule. It says he will 'keep them from' the HOT, but that does not mean they won't go through it. That is why it calls for faith and endurance on their part during that time. 'Keep them from' means he will 'watch over them', 5083. téreó.
* test/tribulation - 3986. peirasmos/2346. thlibó = affliction/distress/calamity/suffering
Vidqun

No, obviously we're not on the same page. Please identify God's people from the thousands if not millions of churches? At this stage none of them qualify. The Philadelphia congregation represents all people on earth in the 21st century? Nope. I don't see it like that. It's a stretch.
Armageddon in Pidgin English is "the big buggerup." That's how I see Christendom at the moment. So unity must be established before the GT. I'm not going to go over it again. That would be boring. Clue: It has to do with the fulfillment on Joel and Acts. Soon!
Joel 3:1, 2: Who are the priests and who are the minsters? Please identify them so that I can join. There's thousand if not millions of denominations to choose from. At this stage I don't want to go there.
You've got this right. peirasmos/2346. thlibó = affliction/distress/calamity/suffering. It has quite a wide meaning. Notice test = suffering. Remember, Jesus was tested in the wilderness by Satan.
θλῖψις. Greek for “tribulation.” In our literature (as in LXX) frequently and in the metaphysical sense trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation. Of distress that is brought about by outward circumstances.
πειρασμός (= “test”) means “an attempt to learn the nature or character of something,” test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7) πρὸς πειρασμόν to test you 1 Pt 4:12. διὰπειρασμόν τινα because you are being tried in some way Hm 9:7. Perh. Js 1:2 and 1 Pt 1:6 belong here (cp. Pind., O. 4, 22 διά πειράτοι βροτῶνἔλεγχο=trial is the test of mortals; sim. N. 3, 70f). Some translate passive Greek verb πειρασμός with “being tempted,” i.e., an attempt to make one do something wrong, temptation, enticement to sin. If this is the case, Jesus’ admonition to the Philadelphians might not refer to the Great Tribulation after all (cf. 2 Thes. 2:2, 3).
All the nations won't fit on the low plain of Jehoshaphat (= Jehovah is judge). Same goes for the Mountain of Megiddo. These I view as a world situation rather than a geographical location.

Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

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