Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  PetrW

  @Vidqun

  But what I miss from your post is your interpretation. What do you think it all means? How is it all going to play out? Or are you still working on your hypothesis? Because that is all we can do at this stage: Work out a hypothesis according to available data. Put in into a theoretical construct and apply the data in real time. Then allow for the repetition of the experiment and/or peer review and see if it holds up to scrutiny.

  PW: Good point about interpretation. Before I answer, I think exactly the same as you do, that the question of Revelation should be addressed primarily in terms of some theoretical construct - without names of institutions, rulers, or countries first.

  My criticism, which I wrote to e.g. Mr. Kosonen, regarding the attempt to interpret e.g. some characters in Revelation as UNO etc., also applies to me.

  Let me explain: i can think that if Jesus came at this time, then the institutions, rulers and beasts of this world, will definitely play some role in Revelation. But I have to be prepared for the possibility that Jesus will also come 250 years from now. And it is clear that the "materialization" I can afford today will certainly not be valid 250 years from now...

  So I am watching the situation today, around me, but I am equally careful not to overestimate or underestimate the situation "here and now". Personally, I miss this approach: most interpreters who consider Revelation (apart from those who claim that it has all happened in the past) then, in my opinion, "bet" everything on one card. There is no natural caution or respect for the statement that no one knows about that day. Especially with ex-JWs, that caution should be obvious. Okay, many will agree with this, but again, few actually apply it to their interpretations as well - the actual world and the possible world.

  It seems to me that if one were to actually do this, then one would have to sooner/later resign oneself to concretizing institutions/rulers/countries and go back to finding some theoretical construct and testing it. So first without the names...

  Now for the interpretation. I, like millions of people before me over the centuries, have tried different variations. Different chronological scenarios. I've read the literature and commentary over the last 200 years or so.

  In the end, only one approach worked for me: start from the end😊 The result is always clear. That's why I started looking at the storyline just before the end - who is fighting who and with what outcome. And strictly without names of states or institutions. As in sociology, I began to look at roles, functions and relationships - first in terms of the chronology of events.

  To be specific: if in 11:7 it is stated that the two witnesses will be killed by the Beast of Abyss in 17:8 then those events, build on each other. First the witnesses, then the Beast. Or, if it is written in 16:10 that the bowl of wrath will be poured out on the throne of the Beast, then the Beast must exist, so the event of the 5th bowl must occur after the Beast appears. Or: if the 6th seal (7:3) states that the sealing of the 144,000 is to begin, then the 5th trumpet (9:4) states that the apocalyptic locusts, among others, are not to harm those who have the seal of God. And if the locusts are identified as the 1st woe (8:13), then the 6th trumpet (9:12) announces the release of the four angels, because the sealing of the 144,000 has been completed...

  This created a basic chronological framework that suggested (I am still talking about a theoretical construct!) that events proceed roughly as they are described. There is not some parallelism or periodization of events.Then I looked for the individual meanings of the words in their symbolic meaning. This is very, very thin ice.

  Three things became the main clues so that I didn't go outside the box (I often did):
  

  *

  What I described above very simply had results, for example, in that I then searched for the identity of the Great Babylon. I have written about 6 pages of this and will probably have to write about 6 more😊 The reason I was there was that I was commenting on firstly the history of interpretation of the concept, then the current state of biblical scholarship and only then, stating my opinion, which I support from the history of interpretation, the current state of biblical scholarship and from the extensive argumentation from the NT text, which is key.
  

  But I'm too lazy to write!😊 So, even though I have a lot of background, I don't really feel like writing because discussing the issues is better than boring writing about who wrote what and when...😊

  But while I have to argue "666" very well, then I am, as I write, half done (satisfied) with the identity of the Great Babylon, so then we can discuss it here...

  **

  I will try to finish the topic of Babylon the Great by the end of the week and then it will be obvious what I think about the Beast, the 10 Kings... And if there is any point in looking up their names at all (the Beast and the kings will be named something, but it will be clear that it is not that significant - the interpretation should apply as much to today as to the world that may be 250 years from now, or even what may have been until now... So again I return to what I wrote to Mr. Kosonen.)
  
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  Vidqun

  Duran, you sound terribly sure of yourself. Surprisingly, you refer to the Society as an authority. They don’t know whether they are coming or going (reminds me of Biden). There’s nobody left in their ranks that can write authoritatively about the GT or the book of Revelation. First on their list is the fall of Babylon the Great as the beginning of the GT. I have it under good authority that that will only happen during the seventh vile of plague. And they couldn’t even foresee the vaxxes as being detrimental to a person’s health. I really couldn’t care less about their opinion.

  If WW III doesn’t materialize, will your hypothesis survive? Have you read about the breaking of the sixth seal and the first four trumpet blasts? I can assure you these do not describe WW III. So what do you think is being described there? These follow on each other's heels. The breaking of the seventh seal introduces the angels with the trumpets. The angel blowing the seventh trumpet introduces the angels with vials of plague.

  Yes, a lot of people have died prior WW I. But as a student of history, what we had there is something unusual. Historians call it the Great War. Most of the existing nations at the time were drawn into the fray. Here we are also introduced to modern warfare, including aeroplanes, machine guns, tanks, submarines, trench warfare, mustard gas, etc. That’s why it is referred to as the First World War with its millions of fatalities.

  Word War II would even be worse. Again most nations would become involved. Here now another phenomenon sees the light, called the military-industrial complex. This industry produces the atomic bomb. The Americans were so kind as to demonstrate the new weapon. From there came missiles, jetfighters, the Hydrogen bomb, etc. Now man is in a position to destroy the earth and everything on it. Question is: Will God allow it? What comes to mind here is Ps. 2. The nations are vying for power. They forget that God and His Son will soon be in charge. You either submit to them or you are destroyed (Rev. 11:18; cf. Ps. 110:1-3).

  Another time indicator for me is the term “Day of the Lord” (Rev. 1:10). When did it start? My bet here is on the beginning of the nineteenth century and the breaking of the first three seals.

  The book of Revelation revolves around a period called the Day of the Lord. John uses an inclusive phrase ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ “in the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10a), indicating that all Revelation visions are included in this day. The context points to Jesus Christ as the Lord whose “day” it is. Immediately after finding himself in spirit “in the Lord’s day,” John heard, not the voice of Almighty God, but that of His resurrected Son (Rev. 1:10-19 NET).
  The Lord’s Day, i.e., Christ’s day, is intimately connected to: 1) Christ’s royal presence as God’s king designate (Greek noun is παρουσία, translit. parousia: Matt. 24:3, 37; cf. 2 Thes. 2:1, 2), 2) Christ’s Second Coming (Gr. verb is ἐρχόμενον, translit. erkhomenon: Matt. 24:30, 31; 25:31, 32) and 3) Christ’s millennial kingdom rule = royal administration, translit. Basileus > basileuou (Luke 1:33; 1 Cor. 15:25; Eph. 1:8-10; 1 Tim. 6:14, 15; Rev. 1:5; 20:4, 6).

  Rev. 6:8 is not the only time a lot of people will perish. Take note, the during the sixth trumpet blast a third of the men will die. Will the riders of the fourth seal, Death and Hades, carry on into the GT? Then the quarter is part of the third. But if the quarter dies before the sixth seal, then there lies ahead another culling, i.e., a third of the survivors.

  
  

  PetrW, certainly an interesting take on things. As might be obvious by now, is I started with Daniel, and a lot of my conclusions are based on what I found there. Today, a lot of talk about the building of a third temple. Now that will trigger WW III for sure. So that's not something I believe in. God's new temple is going to be built with living stones (Gal. 6:15, 16; cf. 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). Interestingly, there is a clue in Rev. 11 about the two witnesses. Rev. 11:4 quotes Zech. 4:14. Now the governer Zerubbabel, the high priest Jehoshua were given the responsibility to build the temple. So too, the two witnesses will assist in the building of God's new temple. I believe a lot of our questions will be answered by the two witnesses. Looking forward to read your take on Babylon the Great.
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  Duran

  Surprisingly, you refer to the Society as an authority.

  LOL! I didn't refer to them as an authority. I only pointed out that even they who are blind guides have now come around to knowing that nuclear weapons could be used in the future and still not destroy the earth. That was not what they said in the past.
  

  Have you read about the breaking of the sixth seal and the first four trumpet blasts? I can assure you these do not describe WW III. So what do you think is being described there?

  I never said the 6th seal describes WW3, seals 2-4 do. (Rev 6:3-8;Luke 21:10,11;Matt 24:7,8)
  

  The 6th seal describes the sun, moon, star event (corresponds with) that as a result of those seeing it, they want to hide because it indicates to them that the day of wrath from Jehovah (one on the throne) and Jesus (the Lamb) has come. Those very ones that are wanting to hide from that wrath are the same ones that become bird food. I will cite for you some Scriptures to ponder over and then ask you some follow up questions.
  

  [9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

  [12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, 13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”]

  [17 I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]
  

  [ 9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”]
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  Vidqun

  It won't be because of natural catastrophes that the UN is given authority it will be because of WW3. And yes, there will be the use of nuclear weapons to some degree.

  Duran, I am not convinced that God will allow the nations to wage WW III or even a limited nuclear war. But I cannot be dogmatic about it. I do not know what God will allow or disallow. I just don't see it brought out in prophecy in a clear way. IMO what will bring the nations together is the natural catastrophes described in Revelation.

  The MOL is the same as the 8th king/KOTN/disgusting thing.

  Here I disagree. The man of lawlessness was already present in Paul's day (2 Thes. 2:7). It is described as an "apostacy" (v. 3). As soon as the restraint of the apostles are removed, when they die, he will be revealed (v. 7). This is an internal development amongst God's people. He will set himself up in God's temple, built with living stones (v. 4). The characteristics of these people are summarized in the same chapter (vv. 10-12). This hppened in the past and will be happening again. Jesus will personally deal with them during his Second Coming (v. 8). Nothing to do with the eighth king, which is a political entity.

  That is not how those Scriptures truly read. Are you not conflating here in this case?

  No, actually the only thing that I wanted to emphasize was that people will see what is happening and that they will react accordingly, i.e., "their hearts will faint out of fear."

  Perhaps what you should do, is explain your sequence with a plan of Revelation, as I demonstrated earlier. How do you see it playing out? Do you recognize the natural chronology of the book as we have it today, not at all, or only certain parts? For example Beast from the abyss is still in the abyss at Rev. 17:8. It is out of the abyss at 11:7. So 17:8 comes before 11:7. Here it does not follow natural Revelation chronolgy. Another example. 7:9, 14 speak of people coming out of the tribulation, therefore I would see 7:9-17 as an insert. Same goes for 11:14-18.
  
  
  
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  Kosonen

  Hi, I would like to clarify, the man of lawlessness had not appeared in the first century, but it was the apostacy.

  Apostle Paul's point of bringing this up was to calm down the christians who had started to imagin that the day of the Lord was present. Paul told them that it will not be near until the man of lawlessness appears. That would only happen in the very few final years of this system of things. In fact the man of lawlessness has not even now appeared. But apostacy has been in the workings. Apostle Paul describes clearly what the man of lawlessness will claim and perform. It's not symbolic. It's litteral.

  He will do miracles like no one else, and many will then believe he is God. He will be what is called the Antichrist.
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  Vidqun

  Kosonen, I did explain my view and why I believe it to be so. I don't want to repeat it. if you feel you must refute what I have to say, do so, but with specifics. I don't approve of generalizations that doesn't go anywhere.

  If that's how you want to interpret it, go ahead. But you are not taking the facts in consideration. It happened in Paul's day and it will happen again. I don't see any mention of the antichrist in the passage under discussion. People are quick to label a variety of things as the antichrist. Do yourself a favor and look up the Biblical definition of antichrist in John's writing. A lot of people qualify (1 John. 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7).
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  resolute Bandicoot

  Another possibility that could explain everything is that John was tripping on magic mushrooms that grow abundantly on Patmos.

  RB.
  
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  Duran

  Here I disagree. It is described as an "apostacy" Nothing to do with the eighth king, which is a political entity.

  [2 However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.]

  [ 31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively.36“The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the God of his fathers; nor will he show regard for the desire of women or for any other god, but he will magnify himself over everyone.]

  The apostasy that has to come first before Jesus can come and gather his chosen is led by the KOTN/disgusting thing. He leads the apostasy AFTER he is put in the holy place which corresponds with the MOL sitting in God's temple. His being put in place corresponds with the kings giving the beast its 42-month authority. That time corresponds with the holy city being trampled on for 42-months which is the GT on God's people.

  The apostasy/LIE with the MOL/8th king/KOTN/DT is done with the false prophet. It all has to do with taking the MOTB/supporting the 8th king/Satan's counterfeit kingdom.
  

  ____________________________

  In regard to Revelation 14:9-12 above do you see that those that receive the mark will receive God's wrath?

  What time frame in Revelation do you say the MOTB will be given out?

  According to 1 Peter 4:17 judgment starts with the house of God. Where in Revelation do you say describes this judgment on God's house?

  What do you say the 'hour of judgment' is referring to at Revelation 14:7 and when does it take place?
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  Kosonen

  Good points Duran, the scriptures complete each other. 👍
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  Vidqun

  resulute Bandicoot, there's two prophecies that stand out for me. Keep in mind, the prophecy is nearly 2,000 years old: "And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind." (Rev. 13:13). I am sure you have heard of DEWs: "A directed-energy weapon (DEW) is a ranged weapon system that inflicts damage at a target by emission of highly focused energy, including laser, microwaves and particle beams." See Wikipedia.

  And how did John know the leaders of the nations have hidey-holes in the rocks: "And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains." (Rev. 6:15). John actually recognized that the prophet Isaiah penned a similar prophecy a few hundred years before him: “Enter into the rock and hide yourself in the dust because of the dreadfulness of Jehovah, and from his splendid superiority” (Isa. 2:10). Not bad for a guy tripping on magic mushrooms!

  Duran, I would first suggest we distinguish between religious and political apostasy. First we have to get God's people together as discussed earlier. Hopefully it wll happen sooner than later (Joel 2:27-32; Acts 2:17-21). In the straits of the times the 144,000 will be sealed. According to the context, this will happen after the sixth seal (Rev. 6:17; 7:1-3). These must come out of the Israel of God which have to exist as such (Gal. 6:15, 16). Within the Biblical context "apostasy" is here used in a religious sense. Note what Wiki says:

  Apostasy (Greek: ἀποστασία, translit. apostasía, lit. "defection, revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion that is contrary to one's previous religious beliefs. One who undertakes apostasy is known as an apostate. Undertaking apostasy is called apostatizing (or apostasizing – also spelled apostacizing). The term apostasy is used by sociologists to mean the renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, a person's former religion, in a technical sense, with no pejorative connotation (Wikipedia).
  

  Enter the "man of lawlessness." This group will be infiltrating God's people similar to the group that infiltrated first century Christians after the death of the apostles. As you rightly pointed out, apostasy is also used in a religious sense by Daniel (11:34). The ranks of the Maskilim ("those with insight") are to be infiltrated by “smooth ones”: “But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness [out of treachery, NAB].” Here the context indicates religious apostacy: "give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant" (v. 30). "And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words." (v. 32). "refining work because of them and to do a cleansing" (v. 35; cf. 12:10)
  

  This indicates difficult times ahead for God's people. This is brought out by an angelic vow in Daniel's epilogue: "... that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished." (Dan. 12:7 ESV) With this information one can almost construct "the prophetic history of God's people during the Tribulation." This is expanded by the 2,300 evening-morning vision of Dan. 8.

  Now for your questions: Sorry for the repetition, but I thought it necessary.

  1) Subsequently, each time he mentions the mark and a person's fate, he qualifies it with "worship" (Rev. 13:16, 17; cf. 14:9, 11; 16:2; 19:20; 20:4). Just receiving the mark will not condemn a person. The "worship"-part will. What does "worship"mean?
  

  Worship: To give one’s honour and allegiance to a higher power. To “express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for a higher authority.” See Louw-Nida. To “express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission” to a high authority figure or organization, in this case the beast, its image as well as the dragon (cf. Rev. 13:8, 12, 15; 14:11;16:2; 19:20; 20:4; cf. 13:4). See BDAG.

  2) According to my understanding of Daniel and Revelation, the "man of lawlessness" wll come in power during the first half of the Tribulation (cf. Dan. 8 and 12) when the continual sacrifice is banned (continuity or continual sacrifice = Rom. 10:10-15; Heb. 13:10-16; cf. 1 Cor. 10:20, 21).

  3) 1 Pet. 4:17 Not sure of this one. Let me think about it. I would think Mal. 3:1-3 would have something to do with it. Jesus also inspected the literal temple while on earth and threw out the money changers. But the when is the difficult part.

  4) Hour of judgment. Within the context and general scheme of things, this final warning would be given, therefore must be referring to Armageddon. Just after this announcement, a summary of Armageddon is given.