Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Vidqun

    I'll start with what we agree on.

    Ad the sea: we agree, there is nothing to add. I would even say that the same thing you wrote about the "sea" can also be done, from a symbolic-eschatological point of view, with the concept of "earth"...

    I'm going to continue with what we agree less on:

    Ad earth: here I miss your confirmation, for the other places in Revelation and which refer to the Greek γη (earth). I lack sufficient conclusiveness that γη (country) means some totalitarian systems with some democratic facade, or alternatively, why here so and in other places otherwise... the term γη in the NT-text, in terms of distribution of occurrence, is the most frequently represented in Revelation... that's why he thinks that your explanation for one occurrence, needs a stronger argumentation than the one you offer so far (I mean first the theoretical level, where the semantic meanings for each passage are evaluated, and only then the "materialization" = "what it can be", which you have already done)...

    Ad abyssos: Your idea that abyssos expresses some "non-activity" is interesting = if I find a connection between 20:1;3 (abyssos) where Satan is cast and 20:7 where he is said to be released from "prison" again, then surely abyssos is a place of prison "non-activity". The moment of "non-activity" is demonstrable. However, I rather reject (I'm not entirely sure) that to associate abyssos with the statement "was, is not, and must come out of abyssos" that the "not" represents precisely the "abyssos"? The abyssos has not disappeared, therefore the "is not" must refer to the Beast, in my opinion. In my opinion, it is an important temporal datum that refers to the "position" of the writer (John) in terms of the timeline of the event. Simply put: at the time of the writing of Revelation, the Beast was not (I will elaborate in the following passage).

    The last part is where we disagree.

    I'll explain the paradox first: my refusal to understand the heads of the Beast as individual empires is based, among other things, on the very texts from Daniel that you also cite in support of "heads" having that meaning. That's the paradox.

    First of all, what you and the exegetes in the past were right about: at the time Daniel saw or heard the prophecies, and if they were directly connected to any geographical or political realities, then indeed the prophecies had a literal fulfillment. I, for one, am not opposed to a literal interpretation that sees the statue as a picture from Babylon to the Roman Empire (by this I would see the fulfilled meaning of the words: was, is not, and shall appear" = by the destruction of Jerusalem, then the Roman Empire fulfilled its purpose and in terms of literal fulfillment of prophecy, fades away. As the Beast disappears from the prophetic meaning, to reappear at the "end of days.")

    So: the literal fulfillment, I think, was just as valid as, say, Jesus talking about Jerusalem being besieged and having to flee to the mountains of Judah. These literal moments of prophecy were fulfilled, both in the case of Jesus speaking and in Daniel. But it is forgotten that there the main motive was eschatological warning. Jesus is answering the apostles' question of when the "end of the world" would be, so Jerusalem or the mountains of Judah have a double meaning: the historical and literal one, and the eschatological and symbolic one. Also, Daniel in (2:28) claims that the dream of the statue, refers to "subsequent // later i.e. final days", whereas the LXX, already here, sounds quite "New Testament" when it translates (2:28) as "last days".

    But it is not only this text (2:28) that makes me respect this vision, especially(!!!) eschatologically and futuristically, i.e. that it will be fulfilled only in the future. In 2,35 a description is given of what was in the dream and it is described that the stone, crushes iron, clay, bronze, silver and gold, like chaff. If Daniel is then interpreting the dream, then in 2:38 he refers to the king as a golden head, and then in the commentary he again comes to the passage where the whole (statue) is destroyed - 2:45. The stone is torn from the rock and destroys the iron, bronze, clay, silver and gold. The Aramaic text no longer even preserves the order of the materials as they will be destroyed (see the BHS and the reference to the LXX which "levels" the text to 2:35). The statue and all it represents must be destroyed in its entirety. Whether the destruction is symbolic or physical, then of course all entities must be present somehow.

    For example, if I claim that the feet and toes represent the "Anglo-American Empire" (or whatever) and it is destroyed, then something must exist at the same time that also represents the golden head. And a defunct empire in the form of ancient Babylon probably isn't and won't be that. I would have to see in the golden head some other - admittedly prior (see order of empires) - but still existing empire that will succumb to destruction like all the others. I think this is only possible if the empires/rulers are quickly replaced and the overall duration is very fast - the 42 months of Revelation is offered to me as the most reasonable interpretation...

    Exactly the same is the case with the 4 animals of Daniel chapter 7. The animals appear together from "the sea" (7:3) and then it is specified where they will operate - "from the earth" (7:13). In 7:11-12 it is clearly communicated that the 4th animal will be destroyed, burned with fire, but the other three animals will be allowed some time. If this 4th animal, with its 10 horns, is destroyed and Daniel's picture can be understood as a refinement of Revelation, then again the other animals that came out of the sea together must also exist at the time of the destruction of the 4th animal.

    This is possible - in my opinion - only if the remnants of the 3 animals exist at the time the 4th animal is destroyed. It must happen quickly, in a matter of months and before the end.


    So these are the reasons why I reject any large-scale - overlapping generations of empire.

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Kosonen

    When asked why UNO (or any other institution/government or country) has anything to do with Revelation when no one knows about "that day and hour", I usually get the answer that there is not just one "sign" to prove "it". It's not just UNO, but also this or that, over there or elsewhere, all confirming that the end is here... I then insist on the statement that no one knows about that day and hour, and ask how will UNO or other present day entities behave if Jesus doesn't come until, say, the 23rd or 25th century? What will happen to UNO or Russia or America, say, the year 2432?

    If even the one who is to come does not know the time of his coming and claims to, then there is only one option left and that is to wait. But to wait means that Jesus may indeed come in 200 or 250 years, just as he may come in 20 or 25 years. In the matter of waiting for the Lord, all future options must have the same possibilities. How prepared are you for the alternative of the Lord coming in, say, 250 years? What effect does this alternative have on the truth of the UNO interpretation?


  • Kosonen
    Kosonen

    Jesus specified that no one knows the day or hour. But he did not say month or year. I am not saying that some one could point to a month or a year. But I don't think it will be impossible to know that it is quite near.

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Kosonen

    But I don't think it will be impossible to know that it is quite near.

    It can/will be recognized. But there is a difference between knowing something or proclaiming what you know. In the latter case, one can easily be in danger of being labeled a false prophet.

    My understanding is that you have a 50% chance of it coming true as you claim. But since it may take place in a completely different "setting" then there is an equal chance that you are wrong.

    Imagine that even in 2432 Jesus doesn't come and someone discusses the fact that in the 20's, 21st century it was very popular to equate certain characters in Revelation with UNO, America, etc. etc.

    None of this has come to pass. Again: there is the threat of "false" prophecy...

    But I'm not being so dramatic about it: rather, I'm pointing out that if someone in 1805 considered Napoleon Bonaparte to be some kind of head of the Beast, or the events of the French Revolution to be happening in Revelation, then they certainly had more reasons for claiming that as well. Nothing - from the perspective of 2023 - has come true. To me, this suggests that this is not the correct approach. That it is better to completely discard the paradigm where one looks to acute events or postures for their counterpart in Revelation.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Sorry. Internet outage. Will get back to thread soon. Must catch up first.

  • Kosonen
    Kosonen

    When the seven headed beast of Revelation 13 presents itself and sets up an image of itself for worship, then we could expect God's Kingdom come within a decade.

    Daniel 8 speaks about 2300 days. That is 6 years and 3 months.

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    I was going to reply, but...

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    PetrW, glad there are some points of agreement. But what I miss from your post is your interpretation. What do you think it all means? How is it all going to play out? Or are you still working on your hypothesis? Because that is all we can do at this stage: Work out a hypothesis according to available data. Put in into a theoretical construct and apply the data in real time. Then allow for the repetition of the experiment and/or peer review and see if it holds up to scrutiny.

    The biggest difference between my hypothesis/theory and those presented is the fact that all my pieces are in on the chess board. Now I am watching them manoeuvre to their assigned places. And the more I watch events unfolding, the more convinced I am, I am on the right track.

    For example, you are uncomfortable with earth/clay suggestion. To me it fits well into the overall picture. It is what we are seeing and experiencing at the moment:

    Potter’s art work vs. Democratization: At the formation of the feet and toes of the statue, the first stage would call for iron ingredients to be mixed with wet clay, for these to be moulded into shape (cf. טִין). The second phase would call for the image to be kiln-baked or sun dried (cf. חֲסַף). Now the clay would be become rock hard, i.e., ceramic. As the image would be growing older, the weight of the image would cause the clay component to become brittle. During the initial stages of the democratization process, (government) structures would be soft, malleable and pliable, like wet clay. After a time of experimentation and implementation, these structures would mature and become established, i.e., the ceramic stage. As these grew older, becoming more liberal and top-heavy, i.e., badly balanced or proportioned, or heavily indebted, these would become brittle.

    The iron part of the image stands for autocratic governments. Is that not what we are seeing today? For example China and Russia, as multipolar nations (BRICS) vs. unipolar nations (West) give rise to a bipolar world. And on such a shaky foundation stands the image. Even without the help of the stone, it would have toppled and broken in any case. The image sums up the current situation in a most excellent way.


    Duran, it took me a while to work out your view. I believe in the inspiration of the Bible, so I believe in all those scriptures, with just my interpretation that differs. But now that you explained it, I am with you.

    As I explained to PetrW, my interpretation method uses history and current events. I try and follow the logic. But is by no means perfect or the last word in interpretation. This is what I wrote to someone else: “Of God Paul exclaims: O the depth of Gods riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments [are] and past tracing out his ways [are]! For who has come to know Jehovahs mind, or who has become his counsellor? (Rom. 11:33, 34; cf. Is. 40:13, 14, 28b) I do not have special esoteric knowledge as to the workings of the divine mind, as some claim. I can only work with what I have. I do believe things will be made clear in the near future, especially with the arrival of the two witnesses, and even before then.

    If you do not believe the horsemen have started with their gallop, that’s fine by me. But recent and unique history does fit the evidence. But that’s the difference between us, my pieces are on the board. You are still waiting for your pieces to arrive on the scene. And that is the case with many modern exegetes.

    Even if WW III breaks out now, that would be a continuation for me of the galloping horses. And I work out the quarter of fatalities since WW I. Lot of people have died already from famine, pestilence, war, etc. Agreed it might not be 2 billion as yet, but isn’t that what the GT is all about? When the Bible refers to the GT, in means just that, the greatest tribulation ever. For example, there are mega quakes in the pipeline, amongst other disasters:

    Gr. σεισμὸς μέγας, lit. a mega-quake. 1) The earthquake that would occur after the breaking of the sixth seal. These would not flee to underground structures immediately after a great earthquake (Rev. 6:12-17). 2) The earthquake of chap. 8:5. An angel, after scooping fire from the heavenly altar, would throw it on the earth, accompanied by a great earthquake, thunders, rumblings and lightning flashes. 3) The earthquake of chap. 11:13, resulting in the death of seven thousand prominent individuals. 4) The earthquake of chap. 11:19, mentioned alongside “a great hail.” 5) The same goes for the earthquake of 16:17. This will be the biggest one yet, destroying the cities of the nations (v. 18). It will be accompanied by a “plague of unusually great hail stones (v. 21).

    Because of the natural catastrophes ahead I believe the UN will be invited to take over leadership of the nations, to restore law and order. Not sure whether God will allow the nations to use their nuclear weapons. That would ruin the earth and everything on it (cf. Is. 45:18). But I might be wrong .

    “After WW1 the LON. After WW2 the UN. With WW3 UN gets authority to become 8th king. (Rev 13:5; 17:13)”

    At least we agree on above sequence of events as well as the 42 months of persecution. God’s people will be exempt from trumpet blasts and plagues, but not from the coming persecution. This is confirmed by Daniel’s time, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years. When Jesus comes, he will also sort out “the man of lawlessness,” which I believe to be a group and not a specific individual (2 Thes. 2:2, 7, 8).

    Kosonen, I can only repeat what I said. For me all pieces are on the board and busy moving. For you things must still happen. You are still waiting for the seven headed beast to appear. To me it is an open and shut case. The current beasts are working to control mankind. We have had a taste of it with COVID lockdowns. That was an exercise, an exercise in control, and they were quite successful. In a report by the International Energy Agency (IEA), it is stated: “The COVID crisis demonstrated that people can make behavioural changes at significant speed and scale if they understand the changes to be justified.” So with some serious natural catastrophes ahead, I think that’s where we’re heading.

    When will the GT start? I am wary to put time and date on it. But the Bible is quite clear:

    11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs. 25 Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation,
    26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Lk. 21:11, 25, 26)
  • Duran
    Duran
    Because of the natural catastrophes ahead I believe the UN will be invited to take over leadership of the nations, to restore law and order. Not sure whether God will allow the nations to use their nuclear weapons. That would ruin the earth and everything on it (cf. Is. 45:18). But I might be wrong

    It won't be because of natural catastrophes that the UN is given authority it will be because of WW3. And yes, there will be the use of nuclear weapons to some degree. Even the WTS now acknowledge that.

    If you do not believe the horsemen have started with their gallop, that’s fine by me. But recent and unique history does fit the evidence. Even if WW III breaks out now, that would be a continuation for me of the galloping horses. And I work out the quarter of fatalities since WW I. Lot of people have died already from famine, pestilence, war, etc. Agreed it might not be 2 billion as yet, but isn’t that what the GT is all about?

    What about all the people that have died already from famine, pestilence, war, etc. prior to WW1? Was it not from the horsemen? If not, why would you think that it has been from the horsemen since WW1? In your same breath there you ask in regard to the 2 billion, isn't that what the GT is about? If that is the case, then since it is said that that the horsemen have authority to kill 1/4 of people and if that occurs during the future GT then why claim the horsemen began back at WW1? You saying that is claiming seals 1-4 opened back then.

    Also, 2 billon are not said to die as a result of the GT, it is a result of the 'pangs of distress'/WW3. The GT is the 42-months that come AFTER POD/WW3. It is GT only for God's true people who are refusing to take the mark under the 8th king rule. It is from that time that the great crowd come out from.

    When Jesus comes, he will also sort out “the man of lawlessness,” which I believe to be a group and not a specific individual (2 Thes. 2:2, 7, 8).

    The MOL is the same as the 8th king/KOTN/disgusting thing.

    When will the GT start? I am wary to put time and date on it. But the Bible is quite clear:
    11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs. 25 Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation,
    26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Lk. 21:11, 25, 26)

    That is not how those Scriptures truly read. Are you not conflating here in this case?


    [Luke 21:10Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another food shortages and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.]

    [Mark 13:8 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom;there will be earthquakes in one place after another; there will also be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress.]

    Above is the POD/WW3 (Seals 1-4) which leads to the 42-months/GT (during 5th seal open), then below comes AFTER the 42-months.

    [Luke 21:25“Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.]

    [Mark 13:24“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

    [Revelation 1:7Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.]

    (Seal 6)

  • Duran

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