WATCHTOWER JAN 2025: WHY IS THE WATCHTOWER OBSESSED WITH THE RANSOM?

by raymond frantz 75 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @ Duran,

    But here comes the ridiculous unfair part.
    It was decided (by God) that Adam and Eve's children and every person born thereafter would automatically be born sinful/not perfect

    Aparently Adam was truly King of the planet, with authority and dominion over all that was in it, including all of its potential.

    When he fell, he took it all with him. God vested all of it in him - Adam.

    "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit" - Romans 8: 20

    subjected to suffering and death, while claiming that they still will have freewill.

    It appears that both sin and free-will somehow both inhabit fallen man. Hence why our species is so unstable.

  • Duran
    Duran
    When he fell, he took it all with him

    You say that like it was Adam that subjected all to futility, but it was God who decided that ALL people who didn't even exist yet, they would all have to suffer sin, being born right into it from the beginning of their life, even though they personally did not do anything to deserve such penalty.

    It was God that subjected it because of what Adam did:

    [20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but through the one who subjected it, on the basis of hope.]

    [17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”]

    If that only applied to Adam and Eve for their actions, then that would be a case where you could say, Well the one that created them set the rules and they disobeyed therefore received the outcome.

    But instead, you have this:

    [12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned]

    That last part is not true that ALL men had sinned. How does a newborn baby sin (disobey God)? They don't! All men sinned is based on God's decision that it would automaticity spread to all Adam's offspring at birth, or I suppose even at conception.

    How about my question on Lazarus?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Newborn babies are not "men".... probably go straight to heaven if they die.

    Regarding Lazarus: I coulnd't make out your point. Are you wondering why he died again after being resurrected? If so, it is because he was a sinner.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Newborn babies are not "men".... probably go straight to heaven if they die.

    'Men' there is not speaking about adults or males, it is speaking about mankind/the human race which includes males and females of all ages.

    Are you actually claiming that a newborn baby is born sinless?

    LOL! You have a problem here for your beliefs based on your answer to the above.

    You want to say that babies are born sinless because they are too young to do anything to get saved, so a sinless baby in your reasoning could go to heaven.

    If the baby was born with sin and later died and could not have done anything to get save in your view, where does that baby go? Does God take the sinful unsaved baby?

    If you say that a baby is born without sin, then at what point/age does a baby/child become sinful?

    And if you claim babies/young children are sinless from birth until some point, then why/how do babies/children even get sick or die during the point that you think they are sinless?

    Regarding Lazarus: I coulnd't make out your point. Are you wondering why he died again after being resurrected? If so, it is because he was a sinner.

    He was a sinner because it was passed on upon him through Adam, right?

    But he died paying the wage for sin, so when he was resurrected, he should not have been under the adamic sin penalty of death.

    [14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died,]

    [43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazʹa·rus, come out!” 44 The man who had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them: “Free him and let him go.”]

    [23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.]

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Duran,

    All of us are born with an inherited corruption from Adam that ensures we will inevitably sin. This is often referred to as original sin. While God created Adam and Eve in His own likeness (Genesis 5:1), the Bible says that, once Adam and Eve fell and became sinful, Adam fathered children “in his own likeness” (Genesis 5:3, Romans 5:12). All human beings have inherited a sinful nature through Adam’s original act of disobedience; Adam became sinful, and he passed that sinfulness along to all his descendants.

    The Bible does not directly address an age of accountability for children. But, one verse that may speak to the issue indirectly is Romans 1:20, “Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

    According to this, mankind’s guilt before God is based, in part, on a rejection of what can be “clearly seen” of God’s existence, eternality, and power. Children who are too young to understand things “clearly seen” or reasoning about God in general, should be excused from condemnation in my opinion.

    Regarding Lazarus

    I think your reasoning on the Lazurus question on why he died again, is based, in part, on a Watchtower corruption of the word "death". This a PRIMARY method of deception that the WT employs, changing definitions.

    I personally like to refer to Websters 1828 dictionary so that I can get biblical definitions commonly understood after the Reformation and before the rise of modern materialism. .

    DEATH

    - In theology, perpetual separation from God, and eternal torments; called the second death Revelation 2:10.

    - Separation or alienation of the soul from God; a being under the dominion of sin, and destitute of grace or divine life; called spiritual death

    EX. - We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. 1 John 3:1. Luke I.

    Ex. - Gen 35: 18-20: And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.

    18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

    So, according to scripture, when Lazarus died, his body became separated from its soul / spirit. But, he was not in a position to accept the gift of "everlasting life" because his soul / spirit still posessed a sin nature and the atonement had not yet been offered.

    "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord"

    The bible is clear that our crimes go with us when we die. The idea that we get a clean slate when we die and thus deserve life (reintergration of soul/body/spirit) is totally a WT fabrication, and only serves to minimize the magnitude of the choices we make.

    There will be a personal judgment after we die (Hebrews 9 27). Unless we have a blood covering (and the belief needed to accept it) found only in the new covenant, we will be resurrected (body, soul, spirit rejoined) to stand trial in the flesh at the Great White Throne, after the 1000 yr. reign. This is called the Resurrection of Damnation, the 2nd death.

    This is not the fate for believers who agree to "die" now, and a receive a new spirit. Believers get judged after they die as well, just not at the GWT. The are judged at the Bema Seat, aka "The Judgement Seat of Christ". This is a "believers Judgment" for rewards based on performance as a Christian, and not to determine salvation or guilt. For the believer, that was all settled at Calvary.

    The New Testament teaches, as Martin Luther put it:

    "born once, die twice; born twice, die once"

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Sea Breeze: So, when we choose to reject God, who is good... we are at the same time rejecting everything that is, good.

    Are we, though? What does it mean to reject God? Let's say that I do not believe that this god is real, but I live my life in accordance with his desires. Perhaps I will not be rewarded with an eternity in heaven, but have I earned an infinity of torment?

    Sea Breeze: Some people may feel that this gives God an unfair advantage in the relationship.

    I don't have an issue with this. It's simply unavoidable that God has the advantage, and I don't consider it unfair. I just think that we have to understand what this means for us. If we define God in certain ways, we should be aware of what this could mean for our future, especially if it is going to last forever.

    Sea Breeze: God is not asking us to be something other than what we are.

    It wouldn't make sense for him to ask that, since he is responsible for what we are. I am more concerned with God's actions and how those define him. A God who is not bound by human standards of behavior and morality can only really be understood by his actions and attitudes. And I think the God that is described by Christians raises some very worrisome questions.

    If God's primary concern is that I recognize him and recognize his greatness, and my eternal future rests on this act, it says something about him and his nature. It is not a question of whether he is justified in acting this way, but we must recognize that this being does not subscribe to the same definitions of good, or just, or kind, or fair as humans do. As described, this being is highly likely to condemn everyone at some point for falling short of standards that we cannot possibly meet. And there's nothing we can do about it. That's scary.

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