The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat 225 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Apparently someone did not like my last comment. What part of the comment was inaccurate? A quick search found a Simonian quote equating Moses as the Logos.

    Altered, however, by Moses–that is, by the Logos–that bitter (water) becomes sweet....Hippolytus (RoAH book 6) quoting a Simonian work.

    Enoch of course also was famously in the end revealed to have been Metatron aka Logos and returned to the heavenly throne.

    The point simply being, in the century or more before the traditional start of Christianity, the Logos and other emanations of God were identified as manifest beings. To the extent that any character or storyline was assumed historical, the Logos was as well.

    Simon is a special case in that an assumed recent historical person (and his woman Helena as 'Wisdom') was revered/worshipped as the most recent example of the Logos inhabiting human form. It is not entirely certain that Simon actually existed, but regardless, was believed to have by Simonians and by the author of Acts, who wished to diminish and denigrate the eponymous founder of a rival sect.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I don’t have ability to leave either thumbs up or thumbs down on any posts ever since 2016 when I downvoted a post that boasted Richard Dawkins’ survival of a stroke meant he could continue to promote his wonderful atheist message. 🤷‍♂️

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    In pre-Christian times Jews talked about various concepts or entities in close relation to God such as Wisdom, Logos, Glory, Angel of the Lord, Archangel and so on. But here is the reason why the development supports JW theology and is utterly fatal to Trinitarian orthodoxy: in every case where the concept was viewed as an emanation of God himself it lacked personhood, and in every case where the concept was viewed as an actual person it was always viewed as a creation of God and subordinate to him in power, eternity and knowledge. Both of those scenarios are incompatible with Trinitarianism because an entity that lacks personhood or that lacks equality with God contradicts the Trinity. The idea of Wisdom/Logos/Angel of the Lord as the first created being, second in power only to God himself, was a strand of thought that was developed in early Judaism and was compatible with the early Christian view of Jesus up to the fourth century and is compatible with JW teaching about Jesus as the firstborn of all creation.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Slim...The JW Christology denies the divinity of Christ/Logos. The Logos was God, it/he/she was a semiautonomous aspect of God. This was also so for angels; while they started as transformed sons/gods in El's council, they were in later fully monotheistic Hellenized Judaism, projections of God himself. Think Dr. Manhattan if you were into comics.

    Bing Videos 5 min

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    In the intertestamental and Second Temple periods, Jewish literature explored a wide range of theological ideas, including personalized portrayals of Wisdom (cf. Proverbs 8), the Logos (notably in Philo), the Memra (in Targums), the Shekinah (Divine Presence), and the Angel of the Lord in Genesis and Exodus. However, it is crucial to recognize that these were literary, not doctrinal, developments. Judaism at that time had no central theological authority defining the nature of these concepts. Instead, we find a variety of Jewish voices wrestling with how to maintain monotheism while affirming God’s activity within the world in tangible, personal terms. Importantly, some of these figures are depicted in personal terms, despite the claim to the contrary. For example:

    • Wisdom in Proverbs 8 speaks and acts as an agent in creation (vv. 22–31).
    • The Angel of the Lord speaks as God, bears God's name, forgives sins (cf. Exodus 23:20–21), and is identified as YHWH himself in multiple passages (e.g., Genesis 16:10–13; Exodus 3:2–6).
    • Philo’s Logos functions as God's agent in creation, providence, and revelation, and while not personal in the Christian sense, he is more than a mere metaphor.

    These Jewish ideas laid the intellectual and theological groundwork for Christian Trinitarianism. They were not a contradiction of it, but a seedbed in which the doctrine later found mature expression after the Incarnation and Resurrection of Christ forced the early Church to articulate more precisely who Jesus is.

    The argument assumes a false dichotomy: that if something is personal, it must be created and subordinate to God, and if it is uncreated, it must lack personhood. This is a philosophically and theologically unjustified leap. Trinitarianism, grounded in divine revelation and clarified over time, does not argue that God is three beings but that God is one being in three persons — a distinction rooted in the ontological unity of the divine nature and the relational distinctions among the persons. The early Church concluded from the evidence of Scripture that:

    • The Father is God.
    • The Son is God (John 1:1; 20:28; Colossians 2:9).
    • The Spirit is God (Acts 5:3–4; 1 Corinthians 2:10–11).
    • Yet there is one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Cor. 8:6).

    This is not derived from pagan ideas or philosophical speculation alone but from grappling with revelation — particularly in the person of Jesus Christ.

    The claim that subordination of the Son (or Wisdom, or Logos) implies inequality of nature misunderstands both Jewish categories and the doctrine of the Trinity. Within the Trinity, functional subordination (e.g., the Son is sent by the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son) does not imply ontological inferiority. Jesus himself declared: “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) — but this was said in the context of his incarnation, not of his eternal divine nature. Philippians 2:6–7 is explicit: though Jesus was in the form of God, he humbled himself, taking on the nature of a servant. His subordination was voluntary, rooted in the economic (salvific) order, not the ontological order of the Trinity.

    The objection falsely claims that early Christianity, up until the 4th century, held that Jesus was a created being — a position compatible with Jehovah’s Witnesses’ theology. This is historically inaccurate. Well before the Council of Nicaea (325), Church Fathers affirmed the eternity and deity of Christ:

    • Ignatius of Antioch (early 2nd century): “[Jesus Christ] is God in man, life in death, … the Son of Mary and of God.” (Letter to the Ephesians, 7.2)
    • Justin Martyr (mid-2nd century): refers to Christ as “God” (Dialogue with Trypho, 128).
    • Irenaeus (late 2nd century): says the Son is “eternally co-existing with the Father.” (Against Heresies, 2.30.9)

    The idea that the Son is begotten of the Father does not imply createdness. The Nicene Creed clarified this: “begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father.” The Church rejected Arius’ claim that “there was a time when the Son was not” — a claim much closer to JW theology than anything biblical or apostolic.

    The claim that Jesus is “the firstborn of all creation” does not mean he is the first created being. The Greek word prōtotokos (πρωτότοκος) often means preeminent heir, not necessarily first in time. Psalm 89:27 calls David “firstborn,” though he was the youngest son of Jesse. In Colossians 1:15–17, Jesus is said to be the one “through whom all things were created” and who holds all things together. That cannot be said of a creature.

  • Duran
    Duran

    Trinitarians,

    What are you to acknowledge?

    3670. homologeo - To confess, to acknowledge, to agree

    [15 Whoever acknowledges (3670.) that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in union with such one and he in union with God.]

    ________

    What should you believe in your heart?

    4100. pisteuo - To believe, to have faith, to trust

    [9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith (4100.) in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.]

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @SBF

    If Jesus is not God, then he lied about raising himself from the dead.

    If he raised himself from the dead like he predicted, then he is God.

    Either way, your argument loses. You can't have it both ways.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    If Jesus is not God, then he lied about raising himself from the dead.

    Except, per the Trinity, Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead. God the Father (a separate person) raised Jesus from the dead.

    Is this accurate (per the Trinity teaching)?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    According to Alan Segal, who literally wrote the book on “the two powers”, Philo (as well as other Jews in that period) conceived of the second power, or Logos as a creature outside of God’s being that God created in order to carry out his intentions.

    Philo uses the stoic word logos in place of the Platonic word nous to mean the mind of God, in which all the ideas or forms of our world are conceived … So the logos, defined as the thinking faculty of God, can easily be described also as an incorporeal being, created for the purpose of carrying out His thoughts, having existence outside of God as well as containing the forms of the whole world. Alan Segal, Two Powers in Heaven (2002 [1977]), page 165.
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Halcon

    It's a common misunderstanding to think that the doctrine of the Trinity excludes Jesus from participating in His own resurrection. In reality, the Bible teaches that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in the resurrection of Christ, and that includes Jesus Himself.

    Jesus clearly claimed He had the authority to lay down His life and to take it up again. In John 10:17-18, He said: “I lay down my life that I may take it up again… I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.” That is not a passive role—it’s an explicit declaration of divine power over life and death. Moreover, in John 2:19, Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Verse 21 explains that “He was speaking of the temple of His body.” After the resurrection, John 2:22 says that His disciples remembered He had said this and believed.

    This is not in contradiction to the Father raising Him from the dead, as seen in verses like Acts 2:24 or Romans 6:4. It simply shows that the resurrection is a divine act of the whole Godhead—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11). Each Person is fully God and shares in the work of redemption, including the resurrection.

    The fact that Jesus says, “I am the resurrection and the life” in John 11:25 reinforces this: He is not merely the recipient of resurrection power but its very source. That statement has no place on the lips of a mere creature—it reveals divine identity.

    So, to answer your question: No, it's not accurate to say Jesus didn’t raise Himself from the dead per Trinitarian teaching. On the contrary, the Trinitarian framework fully affirms what Jesus Himself said—that He had the divine authority and power to rise from the dead. Any doctrine that denies Jesus’ role in His own resurrection stands in opposition to His own words.

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