The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat 225 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    Your objection hinges on two misunderstandings: first, a mistaken view of what it means for Jesus to say He received authority; and second, a false assumption about what it would mean for God to be "commanded." These rest on an Arian reading that denies the incarnation, ignores the two natures of Christ, and fails to understand Trinitarian theology as it has been confessed by Christians since the apostolic era.

    Let’s begin with your imagined statement: “God took back his life because he was commanded to do so.” You object that this doesn't make sense because, in your words, (1) “God can’t give up his life,” and (2) “God can’t be commanded by anyone.” But this ignores the very core of Christian belief: the Word became flesh (John 1:14). Jesus, the eternal Son, took on human nature. He did not cease being God, but He entered into a real human existence — one that included mortality, weakness, obedience, and growth (Luke 2:52; Hebrews 5:8). So when Jesus says, “This command I received from my Father” (John 10:18), He is speaking in His incarnate, messianic role, not denying His divinity.

    Yes — as God, the Son shares the divine nature, is uncreated, and is of one being (homoousios) with the Father. But as man, He could say things like “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), or “I do not know the hour” (Mark 13:32), or “I received a command” — not because He lacks divinity, but because He is one divine Person with two natures (divine and human), and He speaks truly from both. This is not contradictory; it is the Incarnation.

    You claim that God can’t die. Of course — as God. But Jesus didn’t die in His divine nature. The eternal Son died in His human nature, as Christians have always believed. If God the Son never truly became man — if He was merely an exalted creature — then we have no Incarnation, and Christianity collapses. But if He truly took flesh, then His obedience, His death, and His resurrection are not signs of inferiority, but of the humility of the God who stoops to save.

    You also say that “Jesus says He was given all authority by God” (Matthew 28:18), and then argue, “Where is the verse where God says ‘all my authority was given to me’?” But this is a category mistake. The Father is not the Son. Trinitarian theology doesn’t teach that the Father is the Son or the Son is the Spirit. Rather, it teaches that the three Persons fully share the one divine nature, and that the Son, as Son, eternally receives His divine being from the Father, not as a creature receives power, but as a Son receives the same nature. This is called eternal generation — and far from implying inferiority, it affirms equality of nature.

    So when Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” He is speaking not from the standpoint of abstract divinity, but as the risen, glorified God-man, who has now assumed kingship over the world as the Messiah. The “giving” of authority is not about a created being being given divine power, but about the enthronement of the Incarnate Son, who has completed His work (cf. Daniel 7:13–14; Philippians 2:9–11). It is the reward of His messianic mission, not proof of ontological subordination.

    As for John 10:18, you’re downplaying Jesus’ own words. He says, “I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it up again.” The Greek (ἐξουσίαν ἔχω) is clear. This is not mere passive obedience. It’s divine prerogative. And it’s inseparable from the statement: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself.” That is a divine claim. No prophet ever spoke that way. Not Moses, not Elijah, not even Michael (assuming, wrongly, that he could be identified with Jesus). But Jesus says He has authority over life and death — not just others’, but His own. This is the power of One who is life itself (John 1:4; 11:25).

    You cite Matthew 28:18 as if the phrase “was given” proves subordination. But this is again only compelling if you reject the Incarnation. Jesus is the God-man. He possesses all authority in His divine nature from eternity — but as the risen Messiah, He now exercises that authority in the human nature He assumed for our salvation. In that nature, He received glory and honor from the Father — not because He lacked it eternally, but because the Son took on a new role in time. This is Philippians 2:6–11: “Being in very nature God… he humbled himself… therefore God exalted him.”

    Your argument also fails to account for John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Jesus clearly says He will raise His body — not He will be raised, not the Father will raise Him, but “I will raise it.” And as John adds, “He was speaking about the temple of His body.” That is a direct claim that He, Jesus, would resurrect Himself. No mere creature talks this way. Paul affirms the same divine identity when he writes: “Christ Jesus, who… did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Phil 2:6).

    Finally, your entire critique collapses when you try to argue that authority “given” to Jesus implies inferiority — as though one divine Person cannot entrust a mission to another without that implying inequality. But this is to import human categories into God, and to confuse economic roles with ontological rank. Within the Trinity, there is order without inequality, mission without subordination of nature. The Son is not less than the Father — He is the Son, who from eternity receives the divine being and shares it fully.

    So yes, Jesus was “given” authority — but as man, as Messiah, as Savior. And yes, He was “commanded” — because He came to do the will of His Father. But in doing so, He revealed His divinity, not denied it. As the Nicene Creed rightly proclaims: “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father.” That’s not a corruption. That’s the Gospel.

    When engaging with Arian claims that deny the full divinity of Jesus Christ, one recurring confusion lies in the way Scripture refers to Christ in both His human and divine natures. Arians often take verses that refer to Christ’s humanity—such as “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), “He learned obedience” (Heb. 5:8), or “He grew in wisdom and stature” (Luke 2:52)—and treat them as conclusive evidence that Christ cannot be fully divine. But this fails to account for the central Christian truth of the hypostatic union: that Christ is one Person in two natures, divine and human.

    To clarify this concept, imagine a simple analogy with two baskets and apples.

    Suppose you're sorting apples: you have two baskets, one for green apples and one for red apples. Your job is to put each apple in the right basket. This is not difficult when the color distinction is clear. You don't put a green apple in the red basket just because it’s still an apple.

    Now apply that logic to the biblical texts about Christ:

    • You have one "basket" for passages that refer to Christ's human nature (e.g., born of a woman, tired, hungry, growing in wisdom, praying to the Father, dying on the cross).
    • You have another "basket" for passages that refer to Christ's divine nature (e.g., “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the] God, and the Word was God” – John 1:1; “I and the Father are one” – John 10:30; “though he was in the form of God…” – Philippians 2:6; worshiped by angels – Hebrews 1:6).

    The Arians try to take verses that clearly go into the "human nature basket" and throw them into the "divine nature basket" to disprove Christ’s divinity. That is as confused as trying to prove that all apples are green by holding up only green apples and pretending the red ones don't exist—or worse, by putting green apples into the red basket and claiming there's no difference.

    John 14:28 ("the Father is greater than I") is a green apple—it belongs to the basket of Christ’s human experience. It does not contradict John 1:1 or Philippians 2:6, which are clearly red apples, belonging to the basket of His eternal divine nature.

    This sorting is not arbitrary—it reflects the truth of the Incarnation. Christ is fully God and fully man. The human nature did not cancel the divine nature, nor did the divine nature consume the human. The Person of Christ operates in both natures without confusion, without change, without division, without separation, as defined in the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD).

    So, what does this mean for Arian proof-texting? Whenever an Arian points to a passage like:

    • “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)
    • “The Son does not know the day or the hour” (Mark 13:32)
    • “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46)

    ... they are pointing to real truths—about Christ’s humanity. But they misapply them by acting as if they speak to the entirety of His Person, or as if they exclude His divinity. But Scripture also teaches:

    • “In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 2:9)
    • “All things were created by Him and for Him” (Col. 1:16)
    • “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58)

    You cannot interpret one set of passages in a way that cancels out the other. That’s bad exegesis and bad theology.

    In conclusion, to rightly understand Christ, we must discern which nature is being emphasized in a given passage. The error of Arianism arises from collapsing both baskets into one and insisting that every statement about Jesus must apply equally to His essence in the same way. But orthodox Christianity maintains the vital distinction: one Person, two natures—truly God and truly man. Denying either nature leads to heresy. Keeping them properly distinguished leads to the worship of the true Christ, the eternal Son of God who took on flesh for our salvation.

  • Duran
    Duran
    “The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.” (John 5:22–23)

    How does one honor the father? (Give an example.)

    How does one honor the son? (Give an example.)

    And why no honor to the HS there?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    You read my post and composed that 1700 word response in less than 12 minutes. 🤔

    A fast typist can type 80 words per minute. (Not taking into account having to compose the text as well as type it) 12 x 80 = 960

    So you managed to type nearly twice as many words as a fast typist in 12 minutes not even taking into account the time it takes to compose the text in the first place. 🤔

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    You wouldn't believe how efficient I can be if I want to ;-)

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I don’t think it’s efficient to outsource your thinking to a machine. 😉

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I asked ChatGPT if a human could have written the above post in 10 minutes. This is what it said:

    No, a human didn’t write that from scratch in 10 minutes — not unless they’re some kind of cyborg. And even then, it’s pushing it.

    🚫 Why that’s unrealistic:

    1. Way too long
      It’s over 2,000 words. Writing that much clear, structured content in 10 minutes would mean churning out 200+ words per minute without stopping, thinking, or making mistakes. That’s not writing — that’s copy-pasting or AI-spewing.

    2. Loaded with technical theology
      The text drops terms like hypostatic union, eternal generation, economic Trinity, homoousios, Chalcedonian definition — not casual Sunday-school stuff. That kind of theological name-dropping doesn’t happen in a flash unless the person is just regurgitating stuff they’ve read or had pre-written.

    3. Too polished, too fast
      It’s got a clean structure, smart analogies (the apple/basket thing), Scripture lined up on cue, and zero rabbit trails. Real humans writing fast make mistakes, meander, or go off-topic. This feels algorithmic, not spontaneous.

    4. Feels like a cut-and-paste job
      If someone says they wrote this in 10 minutes, they either:

      • Had a draft already sitting around, or

      • Used ChatGPT or similar, or

      • Are lying to sound impressive.


    🧠 Reality check:

    This is the kind of content someone produces after hours of writing, or seconds of prompting. It's not coming out of one guy's head fully formed in 10 minutes, unless he’s just copying something and pretending he didn’t.

    So no — a regular human didn’t do this solo in 10 minutes. But an AI absolutely could.

    4o
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    And oh well... let's see other option, like

    1) I have my own pre-written notes

    2) I only use AI to proofread and format my shorthand responses

    So don't accuse me that these aren't my thoughts and I don't know the technical terms myself. For example, the apple-basket analogy is entirely my own, I have never heard it from a single theologian, and you couldn't find it anywhere else. I used to use this analogy even when ChatGPT didn't even exist yet.

    Also, if you hadn't noticed, I often upload my comments and often add a few paragraphs to them afterwards, so the time of uploading the post doesn't mean that I wrote and posted everything in that minute.

    But instead of accusing, you could also focus substantially on the content.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I asked ChatGPT if it could be done in 12 minutes, or how long it would take a human to write the text. The response:

    A well-read human with good writing skills and no need to fact-check could maybe crank this out in 90 minutes, 2 hours is more realistic, and 3+ if they’re careful or it requires research.

    So 12 minutes? Still fantasy land.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    If someone is using AI to produce a 1700 word response in a few minutes, not only are the words not their own thoughts, they likely haven't read or understood the reply themselves.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Good point.

    The apple analogy is not a good one anyway, and has been denounced by (thinking) Trinitarians as a way to divide and read scripture for very good reasons. It’s simply impossible to divide all scriptures into a human Jesus versus a divine Jesus. Many verses won’t fit into those orthodox slots.

    Take John 10.18 itself for example. Trinitarians say Jesus is speaking as God when (as they claim) he says he somehow resurrected himself. But they say he is speaking as a human when he says he is commanded by God. So which is it, the human or the divine Jesus talking in this verse? It doesn’t work.

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