The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat 225 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Duran
    Duran
    You then quoted Revelation 14:1 regarding the 144,000 who have the name of the Lamb and of His Father written on their foreheads. You asked: what is the Lamb’s name, and what is the Father’s name? Symbolically, the “name” represents consecration, belonging, and identity—not merely phonetic labeling.

    aqwsed,

    What is this (3068) יהוה Hebrew name in English and who does is represent here:

    [15 Then God said once more to Moses:“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, (3068) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.]

    ______

    What is this (3091) יהושע Hebrew name in English for this (2424) Ιησούς Greek name and who does is represent here:

    [31 And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him (2424).]

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Other than you reading of this in the Greek Scriptures, what proof do you have that this ever happened, or do you just believe that it happened?

    @Duran

    Earlier in this thread I invited a poster to google non-biblical sources for the life of Jesus. Doing that will reveal over 100 sources from Romans, Jews, Greeks, and other Secular documents. Did you do that? Why not? Is it the fact that historians can completely reconstruct the primary events of Jesus' life including his death, and resurrection from these non-biblical sources?

    Duran, atheists used to make these kinds of outlandish claims denying the historicity of Jesus a few decades ago, not so much now. This is the internet age. The game has changed. It has made it a lot harder to find places to hide from God.

    @SlimBoyFat

    Jesus announced that he was in two places at one time. He was on earth and in heaven simultaneously. How did he do this if he wasn't God? Was he lying about this too?

    "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven". - John 3: 13 (Jesus trying to educate one of the teachers of Israel)

    Also, I'm wondering how you get around this scripture:

    Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8: 9

    I can't imagine you inviting the spirit of Michael the Archangel to take up residence inside of you. But, God's word makes it clear that if you aren't born again through membership in the new covenant, which allows the Spirit of Christ to reside in a person, you are "NONE OF HIS".

    Does this warning concern you?

  • Touchofgrey
    Touchofgrey

    Seabreeze

    @Duran

    Earlier in this thread I invited a poster to google non-biblical sources for the life of Jesus. Doing that will reveal over 100 sources from Romans, Jews, Greeks, and other Secular documents. Did you do that? Why not? Is it the fact that historians can completely reconstruct the primary events of Jesus' life including his death, and resurrection from these non-biblical sources?

    Not sure if it was directed at me ,I did have a look but failed to find any independently verified eyewitness accounts of a miracle worker called jesus. Not even the gospels are eyewitness accounts written by unknown authors many decades after the so called events.

    I also have asked you many times to provide independently verified evidence of a miracle worker called jesus and you keep avoiding providing any.

    Why do religions and belief systems also worship or have trinity beliefs eg Hinduism, ancient Egyptian religion, buddhism, zoroastrianism, and others, some of which predates christianity?

    Following the thread no one has provided any definite evidence that there version of jesus being part of a trinity or that he is a individual creation of a god, it's all seems to be upto personal interpretation ot scriptures and regarding which version of christianity they believe in.

    Both beliefs can't be right ,but they both can be wrong.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Duran...what is the Lamb’s name, and what is the Father’s name?

    The 'Lamb' has many names, the Father as well. The writer of Revelation, for quick example, tells his readers that the Rider of the white horse has a number of names, including a secret one.


    11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.


  • Duran
    Duran
    Earlier in this thread I invited a poster to google non-biblical sources for the life of Jesus. Doing that will reveal over 100 sources from Romans, Jews, Greeks, and other Secular documents.

    SB,

    So do I have this correct, your answer to this question I asked you:

    Other than you reading of this in the Greek Scriptures, what proof do you have that this ever happened, or do you just believe that it happened?

    Your answer is that your proof/facts is based on what you found when googling about Jesus. Because of what you found on the internet, you don't just believe that Jesus dead and resurrected himself, but you see proof of it. Is that correct? (Keep in mind that I am not asking if there is proof if a person named Jesus, etc. existed back then. I am asking if other then it being said in the Greek Scriptures, what proof/facts do you have that Jesus resurrected himself.)

    And you have yet to answer this:

    Do you believe that an angel visited Muhammad and gave him the info to write the Quran?

    Do you believe that an angel visited Joesph Smith and gave him the info for the book of Mormon?

    Do you believe an angel appeared to a man named John (Revelation 22:8) and gave him info to write the book of Revelation?

  • Touchofgrey
    Touchofgrey

    Seabreeze

    Existence comes from non-existence

    2. Order comes from Chaos

    3. Life comes from non-life

    4. Personal comes from the non-personal

    5. Reason comes from non-reason

    6. Morality comes from matter.

    If you take off your god glasses and do some independent research into these statements you will be able to find experts with PhDs in the the subjects that will fill in or give honest information and evidence, rather than relying on the god of the gaps excuses.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    Your response attempts to establish a rigid distinction between the Hebrew names YHWH (יהוה, Strong’s 3068) and Yehoshua (יהושע, Strong’s 3091), linking them respectively to the Father and to the Son, and presuming that these names function as identifiers in a literal, phonetic sense. This framing, however, fails to appreciate the theological and literary richness of how "name" is used in Scripture, especially within Trinitarian theology and the apocalyptic context of Revelation.

    First, the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (YHWH) revealed in Exodus 3:15 is indeed the divine name by which God identifies Himself to Moses and Israel. Yet even in the Old Testament, “name” is more than a vocal sound—it embodies God's revealed character, presence, authority, and covenantal faithfulness. To “remember His name” means to worship, invoke, trust, and submit to His lordship. The divine name signifies God’s self-revelation, but God is not confined to phonetic expression. The notion that correct vocalization of "YHWH" is required for right worship was foreign to the biblical prophets, who were far more concerned with faithfulness to the covenant than with linguistic formality. This understanding carries over into the New Testament, where the emphasis is on the revelation of the divine name in the person of Jesus Christ.

    The second part of the argument connects the Hebrew name Yehoshua (Joshua) to the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), asserting a clear distinction in personal identity. It is true that Jesus’ human name, “Yeshua” or “Yehoshua,” meaning “YHWH saves,” links His earthly identity to Israel’s hope in God’s deliverance. But in Trinitarian theology, the Son is not merely the bearer of a name that references God—He is Himself the full revelation of the divine name. Jesus explicitly says in John 17:6, “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me.” He does not mean that He taught them how to pronounce YHWH; He means He made known the very essence and will of the Father. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), the exact imprint of His nature (Hebrews 1:3). To know Jesus is to know the Father (John 14:7–10).

    Moreover, when Revelation 14:1 speaks of the name of the Lamb and of His Father written on the foreheads of the 144,000, it does not distinguish between two divine identities, as if the Son were not God. Rather, it expresses shared divine authority and ownership. Just as the Father’s throne is also “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Revelation 22:1, 3), so too the name of the Father and the Lamb on the elect signifies unity of essence and rule. Within Trinitarian theology, the name of the Father is not exclusive of the Son, because the Son is consubstantial with the Father (John 10:30). When believers bear the name of God, they are marked as belonging to the Triune God, not to one person of the Trinity alone.

    Finally, my original point regarding the Holy Spirit remains sound. Scripture identifies the Spirit as the one who seals the elect (Ephesians 1:13–14; Revelation 7:2–4). The Spirit does not need to have His name written externally on the believer’s forehead, because He dwells within them (Romans 8:9). His presence is the internal mark of divine ownership and transformation. The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and glorifies both—not Himself (John 16:13–14). Thus, the absence of a “name of the Spirit” written on the forehead is entirely consistent with His divine role as the bond of love within the Trinity and the seal of divine life in the believer.

    In conclusion, your argument reduces “name” to a linguistic tag, missing its deeper biblical and theological significance. The “name” in Revelation is not about phonetic precision or etymological trivia—it is about participation in the life of the Triune God. The Lamb and the Father share one name because they share one divine nature. The Spirit’s seal is not neglected; it is the means by which this name is written on the faithful. Thus, the Trinitarian reading is not only consistent with the biblical text—it is the only one that does justice to the richness of the Christian revelation.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Your response attempts to establish a rigid distinction
    The second part of the argument
    In conclusion, your argument reduces “name” to a linguistic tag,

    I know that you are a compete moron, but do you have to demonstrate it in your every reply?

    I was not making any argument there, I was merely asking you to tell me what you think the English names are for those two Hebrew names and in the context of the Scripture they are cited in, who do they represent.

    Care to try again? Do you think you are capable of answering what's asked?

    What is this (3068) יהוה Hebrew name in English and who does it represent here:

    [15 Then God said once more to Moses:“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, (3068) the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.]

    ______

    What is this (3091) יהושע Hebrew name in English for this (2424) Ιησούς Greek name and who does it represent here:

    [31 And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him (2424).]

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Duran

    Let’s answer your question clearly and directly, without being distracted by the abuse you included, which only reveals your inability to engage civilly with theological dialogue.

    1. What is the Hebrew name (3068) יהוה in English, and who does it represent in Exodus 3:15?

    The Tetragrammaton יהוה is traditionally rendered in English as Yahweh or, in its older English form, Jehovah. It represents the one true God—the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as the text explicitly states. It is the divine name by which God identifies Himself to Moses at the burning bush. So yes, this name clearly refers to the eternal God.

    2. What is the Hebrew name (3091) יהושע in English, which corresponds to the Greek name (2424) Ἰησοῦς, and who does it represent in Luke 1:31?

    The name יהושע (Yehoshua) is the original Hebrew form of the name rendered in Greek as Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), and in English as Jesus. The name means “Yahweh is salvation” or “Yahweh saves.” In the context of Luke 1:31, this name is given by divine command: “You shall name him Jesus.” The one it refers to is Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God—the second Person of the Trinity, who became man for the salvation of mankind.

    Now, while you were simply “asking questions,” your implication was clear: that these are two distinct individuals with distinct identities and names—Yahweh and Jesus (the Son), and thus they must be separate gods or beings. But here’s the theological problem with that suggestion.

    The Christian faith, grounded in Scripture, teaches that the one God of Israel, YHWH, reveals Himself fully in Jesus Christ. The New Testament does not present Jesus as separate from YHWH—but as the very incarnation of the same divine being revealed in the Old Testament. This is why the apostle Paul, in Philippians 2:9–11, says that Jesus is given the name above every name, and that “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This is a direct quotation of Isaiah 45:23, where YHWH says that every knee will bow to Him. In other words, Paul is identifying Jesus with YHWH—not merely giving him a high title, but ascribing to him the worship and identity that belong to YHWH alone.

    Moreover, Hebrews 1:10 applies Psalm 102—a psalm addressed to YHWH—directly to the Son, calling Him the one who “laid the foundations of the earth.” John 1:1 likewise affirms that the Word (who becomes flesh in verse 14) was God and was “in the beginning with God.” And in John 8:58, Jesus says plainly, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” using the very divine identifier God used in Exodus 3:14.

    So while יהוה in Exodus refers to God—whom we call the Father—we must not pretend that this name excludes the Son. Jesus bears the very name of God because He is God. That’s why the name “Yehoshua” (Yahweh saves) is not a name in contrast to Yahweh, but a name that reveals Yahweh’s saving action in the person of Jesus. In Isaiah 43:11, God says, “I, even I, am YHWH, and beside me there is no savior.” Yet in Luke 2:11, Jesus is announced as the Savior—again, this is not a contradiction unless one denies that Jesus shares in the divine identity.

    You asked who these names refer to. I’ve told you plainly:

    • YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) refers to the one true God, revealed in the Old Testament—especially to Israel—and in the New Testament, fully revealed in the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    • Yehoshua (Jesus) refers to the incarnate Word, the Son of God, who is Yahweh in the flesh. His name means “Yahweh saves,” and He is the very embodiment of that truth.

    You cannot pit the name Yahweh against the name Jesus, because Scripture shows they belong to the same divine reality. To divide them is to misunderstand the very unity of God’s revelation. The Father is Yahweh. The Son is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. One God, three Persons—not confusion, not separation, but the mystery of the Trinity revealed in Jesus Christ.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Now, while you were simply “asking questions,” your implication was clear: that these are two distinct individuals with distinct identities and names—Yahweh and Jesus (the Son), and thus they must be separate gods or beings.

    I asked you:

    What is this (3091) יהושע Hebrew name in English for this (2424) Ιησούς Greek name

    You said:

    The name יהושע (Yehoshua) is the original Hebrew form of the name rendered in Greek as Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous), and in English as Jesus.

    Okay, thank you for that. That is a clear answer to my question.

    Is it okay to say at this point that we agree that (3091) יהושע Hebrew name in English is Yehoshua/Jehoshua?

    ________________

    Now for this:

    What is this (3068) יהוה Hebrew name in English

    You said:

    The Tetragrammaton יהוה is traditionally rendered in English as Yahweh or, in its older English form, Jehovah.

    Is it okay to say at this point that we agree that (3068) יהוה Hebrew name in English is Yehovah/Jehovah?

    ___________

    Putting any debate about the Trinity aside, do you agree that I/me/my is referring to Jehoshua and Father/his is referring to Jehovah?

    [ 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.]

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