Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345: Origen lamented textual corruption during his time, but this refers primarily to errors from scribal transmission, a common phenomenon in ancient texts, not deliberate theological manipulation.

    Origen was not talking about "errors from scribal transmission". In his work "De adulteratione librorum Origenis" (On the Falsification of the Books of Origen). Rufinus writes :

    I have shown from [Origen's] own words and writings how he himself complains of this and deplores it: He explains clearly in the letter which he wrote to some of his intimate friends at Alexandria what he suffered while living here in the flesh and in the full enjoyment of his senses, by the corruption of his books and treatises, or by spurious editions of them.
    aqwsed12345 : Any significant textual corruption of their [Polycarp and Ignatius] writings would have provoked objections from the Christian communities safeguarding these texts.

    Why pretend that forgeries didn't happen when I provided abundant evidence they happened in the case of Ignatius. Or did you not say there were interpolations in the long recension? Where were the objections then?

    aqwsed12345 : The Latin manuscripts [of Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians] are based on an earlier Greek text no longer extant. While there are some variations, the general consistency of the text across traditions supports its authenticity.

    Some variations! More than half the Latin manuscripts omit the words "and God" in the expression "Lord and God Jesus Christ.

    aqwsed12345 : While Michael Holmes has expressed caution regarding the phrase "our Lord and God Jesus Christ", he has not definitively ruled it an interpolation.

    I quoted what Holmes said :

    • It turns out that I had forgotten that I had in fact, after working on this passage in more detail, concluded by disagreeing with Lightfoot at this point; I argue the phrase et deum is more likely a later addition.

    Holmes is a scholar, and scholars don't talk in absolutes on textual matters. But he could hardly be clearer that he has changed his mind regarding this interpolation.

    aqwsed12345 : Even if "et deum" were a later addition, the rest of Polycarp’s letter reflects a high Christology consistent with early Christian faith, undermining claims of later doctrinal manipulation.

    As slimboyfat says, what does this actually mean? If "et deum" were a later addition, that is evidence in itself of later doctrinal manipulation.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The Diatessaron harmony of the Gospels reads:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God is the Word. This was in the beginning with God. Everything was by his hand, and without him not even one existing thing was made. In him was life, and the life is the light of men. And the light shineth in the darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not.

    Now you guys can argue about that for a while.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Ha ha. Not me. Just to say that scholars are uncertain what language Tatian used, Greek or Syriac, as everything we know of it is indirectly from other works, especially a commentary by Ephrem the Syrian in the fourth century.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    … and to mention, interesting aside, that according to scholar Robert Shedinger the Diatessaron provides some support for Howard’s thesis of the divine name in the original NT.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_and_titles_of_God_in_the_New_Testament#Diatessaron

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    AQWSED:

    I will ignore most of your statement due to not only the resistiveness of such statements (which is actually rather annoying, I'm not a sheep, I don't have a memory that lasts 30 seconds) and the scholarly research that has gone into passages like John 20:28 which you for some reason are not citing. (specifically the linguistical scholarship on said passage... you are wrong to cite this passage as it actually proves nothing)

    as to my main response:

    literally a GOOGLE search will tell you otherwise..

    you have ignored 90% of my statement.

    "Scholars like Wallace and Robertson have indeed addressed these issues." - and the issue of the other words you claim they would have used? I don't think either of these ever make this argument (because it is invalid)

    "You asks for citations of these terms' usage but provide no counterexamples from the LXX or NT that contradict my argument."

    - 1. Asks? is this a typo or are you being serious?

    - 2. I said "what is the earliest use of these words? and are they used in the NT at all (or lxx)?" this does not mean what you said... are they used? if they are not used in the NT, we have a situation similar to "First-created" where in Pauls time it was neither in common use and another term covered its meaning. (There are other not so famous examples) So Paul would have no need to use it if the term was covered by another.

    3. " but provide no counterexamples from the LXX or NT that contradict my argument."

    What this then?
    "see Mounce for uses of the word: https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/despotes - Where it is used of both Christ and God by my understanding."

    I provided no counter examples? I literally linked just one of my many examples - the rest is one google search away.

    Never had a proper answer from you:

    please define what you mean by: "Christ's full divinity" specifically the word "divinity"

    is this a synonym to deity? (in your usage) because to me and a lot of the population they don't mean the same thing. (including the church fathers usage in alot of cases)

    again the use of this word by you seems to be different to the majority of the population.

    if you wouldn't mind include citations of Bible passages where these 2 are distinguished or used synonymously.

    Jehovah's witnesses claim Jesus was "fully divine" before he came to earth. ("fully" = NOT half divine, half sheep as an example)

    I can cite plenty of texts to back this up.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    Rufinus refers to specific complaints by Origen about corruptions in his writings, but these are limited to certain instances where people deliberately altered his works. This cannot be generalized to claim systematic corruption across all early Christian texts. Origen lived during a time of theological disputes, which occasionally led to opponents distorting works to misrepresent theological positions. However, this is not evidence of widespread or pervasive manipulation. Instead, it highlights isolated cases where intentional edits may have been made by Origen’s critics. The distinction between accidental scribal errors and deliberate alterations is well-established in modern textual criticism. While Origen’s complaints reflect occasional deliberate tampering, the vast majority of textual variants in early Christian writings are demonstrably unintentional, as evidenced by manuscript traditions.

    The Long Recension of Ignatius’ letters is widely regarded as a fourth-century expansion of the authentic Middle Recension. Scholars such as J.B. Lightfoot and Theodor Zahn demonstrated that the Middle Recension represents the authentic core. This consensus arose because the Middle Recension aligns with early Christian theology and is attested by Eusebius in the fourth century. The lack of widespread objection to the interpolations in the Long Recension can be explained by its limited circulation and later composition. By the time the Long Recension was produced, the authentic Middle Recension had already been widely accepted and revered. The later interpolations, while misleading, did not override the established text. The existence of the Long Recension does not undermine the authenticity of the Middle Recension. Instead, it underscores the need for textual criticism to identify the original form of these writings.

    Variants in manuscript traditions are a normal feature of textual transmission. The omission of “and God” in some manuscripts does not necessarily indicate deliberate theological manipulation but could reflect scribal error or differences in regional textual traditions. While some Latin manuscripts omit et deum, the majority include it, and these manuscripts are based on an earlier Greek source no longer extant. The consistency of other elements in the Latin tradition suggests fidelity to the original Greek text. Even if et deum were omitted, the remaining text of Polycarp’s letter reflects a high Christology, including reverence for Jesus as “Lord,” consistent with early Christian theology.

    Holmes’ statement that et deum is “more likely a later addition” reflects scholarly caution, not certainty. Textual criticism often involves probability rather than absolutes. Holmes’ position is an opinion, not definitive proof. Other prominent scholars, such as J.B. Lightfoot, have defended the phrase’s authenticity. While Holmes’ perspective is notable, it does not invalidate earlier or contemporary scholarship that supports the inclusion of et deum.

    Even if et deum were a later addition, it would represent an isolated case, not evidence of widespread manipulation. The interpolation (if it occurred) does not negate the broader theological consistency of Polycarp’s letter, which reflects a high Christology throughout. Early Christian writings consistently affirm Jesus’ deity (e.g., John 20:28, Ignatius of Antioch). The possible addition of et deum would reflect reinforcement of an already-established belief, not the introduction of a new doctrine.


    @Blotty

    Please show me, if you have the opportunity, which scholar claimed that John 20:28 means precisely that "Oh my God, this is Michael the Archangel, who will come invisibly in 1914 to appoint Russell!" Until you find this, explain to me what the word αὐτῷ means in this verse.

    The problem is that you think of "the scholars" as some universal infallible magisterium who collectively establish The Truth. When in fact they simply work with hypotheses, from available material, argue with each other, and what is fashionable changes roughly every two or three decades. (This is just like during COVID, they published biweekly reports on what "the scientists" say, whether it spreads through handshakes, whether you should elbow each other, etc. In hindsight, we now know that they were mostly just guessing.)

    But to be serious... You claim that scholars like Wallace and Robertson have not addressed the issue of alternative terms (e.g., δεσπότης, θεῖος, etc.) because it is an invalid argument. This is not accurate. While scholars may not explicitly focus on hypothetical alternatives, their work establishes why the terms κύριος and θεός were deliberately chosen and why they were uniquely suited to express Christ's deity in the NT.

    Wallace’s analysis of θεός in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics emphasizes that the qualitative use of θεός in John 1:1c affirms the Word’s full deity. This choice of terminology reflects the apostles' theological intent. Wallace also examines κύριος in the context of its LXX usage, demonstrating that it is the standard term used to translate the Tetragrammaton, signifying its divine connotations. The absence of a need to consider alternatives like δεσπότης or θεῖος stems from their unsuitability to convey the same theological weight.

    A.T. Robertson, in A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, supports the theological significance of θεός and κύριος, noting that their usage aligns with the apostles’ intention to ascribe full deity to Christ. The suggestion that δεσπότης or θεῖος could serve as equivalents overlooks the theological implications and cultural context of the NT writers.

    Your point about δεσπότης being used in the NT (e.g., 2 Peter 2:1; Jude 1:4) and LXX is acknowledged. However, δεσπότης is not a term commonly associated with Yahweh in the LXX, nor does it convey the same divine authority as κύριος. κύριος is the LXX standard for translating the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), whereas δεσπότης often conveys a master-slave relationship. When κύριος is applied to Christ, it invokes Yahweh's divine authority, as in Philippians 2:10-11, where Paul quotes Isaiah 45:23 and applies it to Jesus, affirming His equality with Yahweh. δεσπότης does not carry this association.

    You ask for clarification on "Christ’s full divinity" and whether it is synonymous with "deity." In this context:

    • Deity refers to the state of being God—possessing the attributes and essence of the one true God.
    • Divinity may sometimes refer to divine qualities but, in theological discourse, it often functions as a synonym for deity when applied to Christ.

    For example:

    • John 1:1: "The Word was God" (θεός ἦν ὁ λόγος) asserts Christ’s full deity, not merely divine attributes.
    • Colossians 2:9: "In Him all the fullness of the Deity [θεότης] dwells bodily" explicitly ties Christ's incarnate nature to the full essence of God, not a lesser divinity.

    The Church Fathers, like Athanasius in On the Incarnation, frequently used "divinity" as a synonym for "deity" when discussing Christ. Any distinction between the terms must be contextualized rather than assumed to reflect a lower status for Christ.

    You argue that JWs claim Jesus was "fully divine" before His earthly life. This interpretation, however, diverges from their theology, which denies the consubstantiality of Christ with the Father. They argue Jesus is a created being, akin to "a god" but not fully God. JWs render John 1:1 as "the Word was a god," which is grammatically and contextually flawed. Greek grammar, particularly the lack of an article before θεός, supports the qualitative interpretation: "The Word was fully God in essence." By "fully divine" I mean the identity of the quiddity with that of the Father: what is the Father, is the same as the Son. The rendering "a god" is precisely the explicit denial of this identity of the quiddity: "it's kind of godlike, but it's not really that, it’s not a big deal, you know, just like Psalm 82 and Exodus 7:1." And the Greek text does not make this denial, on the contrary, it affirms it.

    The apostles intentionally avoided ambiguous terms like θεῖος or ἡμίθεος to describe Christ because these terms could imply partial divinity or subordination, contrary to their theological intent:

    • θεῖος (divine): Used adjectivally, it could imply a lower-tier divinity, akin to heroes or demigods in Greco-Roman culture.
    • ἡμίθεος (demigod): Explicitly denotes partial divinity, inconsistent with the NT portrayal of Christ as fully God.
    • κύριος and θεός: These terms directly affirm Christ's divine identity and unity with the Father, avoiding the polytheistic connotations of alternative terms.

    Your suggestion that "divinity" and "deity" may be used differently by different groups requires careful examination. The NT and early Church Fathers consistently affirm that Christ’s divinity means He shares fully in the essence of the one true God. This is not mere wordplay but the logical consequence of biblical revelation.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Dismissing 2nd century extrabiblical evidence that passed though 4th century hands, has a certain logic, but given that the biblical texts that started all this debate have the very same history, doing so sounds rather prejudicial.

    The only way to formulate an objective modern opinion is to understand the ancient issues and players. Tatian, was according to ancient sources, an Adoptionist (nontrinitarian). Adoptionism was a very clever theological solution to what were perceived as logical contradictions. The brilliant solution was that Jesus was a man adopted by God through the Logos aka holy spirit possessing him at his baptism. So, by this Christology, Jesus the man was not God, but the Logos inhabiting him was, brilliant.

    Effectively it (and Docetism and many other theories) was Logos theology struggling to literalize the Gospel stories that 'fleshed out' the earlier conceptions of Christ. It was not the only solution offered of course, and passions raged between them.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @peacefulpete

    Canonical biblical texts were widely recognized and preserved by early Christian communities, supported by extensive manuscript traditions and internal consistency. Their transmission history differs significantly from extrabiblical texts, which often lack the same level of communal oversight and authoritative recognition. While scribal errors and variations exist in both biblical and extrabiblical texts, the canonical texts underwent rigorous scrutiny by diverse communities, leading to an unparalleled level of textual reliability. The New Testament texts are heavily attested in early Christian writings and supported by thousands of manuscript witnesses. Extrabiblical texts, such as Tatian’s works, lack comparable attestation and were often contested or even rejected by early Christians themselves. The reliability of canonical texts is not merely assumed but demonstrated through extensive textual criticism, which confirms their integrity despite centuries of transmission.

    While Tatian’s theology was unconventional and eventually considered heretical, labeling him an Adoptionist oversimplifies his Christological views. Tatian’s association with the Encratites (a rigorist sect) and his Diatessaron (a harmony of the Gospels) show his commitment to the Gospel narratives but do not explicitly support Adoptionism. Tatian’s theology leaned toward dualism, influenced by his mentor Justin Martyr’s Logos Christology, but there is little evidence that he adhered to a strict Adoptionist framework. Adoptionism was indeed one of the early Christological models, but it was a minority position rejected by the mainstream Church. The early Christian community overwhelmingly affirmed the preexistence and divinity of Christ, as seen in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr. The assertion that Adoptionism was a “brilliant solution” ignores its fundamental theological flaw: it failed to account for the full divinity and humanity of Christ as revealed in Scripture (e.g., John 1:1, Philippians 2:6-11).

    Logos theology is not a post-Gospel development but a direct interpretation of Scripture. John 1:1-14 identifies the Logos as both preexistent and fully incarnate in Jesus Christ, providing the foundation for orthodox Christology. Paul’s epistles (e.g., Colossians 1:15-20, Philippians 2:6-11) affirm the preexistence and divine nature of Christ, consistent with the Logos theology developed by early Church Fathers like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Early heresies like Adoptionism and Docetism arose from attempts to rationalize the mystery of Christ’s divine and human natures. Adoptionism denied Christ’s preexistence and divinity, while Docetism denied His humanity. The Church’s rejection of these views reflects its commitment to the apostolic teaching of Christ as fully God and fully man. Logos theology, far from being a compromise, offered a coherent framework to articulate this mystery.

    Early Christians engaged in vigorous theological debates, but this does not imply a lack of coherence in their beliefs. The core tenets of Christ’s divinity, humanity, and salvific role were consistently upheld by the mainstream Church. The diversity of thought seen in the second century reflects the process of theological development, not the absence of foundational truths. These debates ultimately clarified and safeguarded the apostolic faith. Despite differing Christological emphases, early Christian worship consistently acknowledged Jesus as Lord and God (e.g., Philippians 2:10-11, Revelation 5:13). This unity in worship underscores the shared belief in Christ’s divinity and central role in salvation.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    "Even if et deum were a later addition, it would represent an isolated case, not evidence of widespread manipulation. " - its still manipulation none the less... you cant get around this

    "but these are limited to certain instances where people deliberately altered his works. This cannot be generalized to claim systematic corruption across all early Christian texts. " - so you admit tampering with Origens works occurred? because if it happened with Origens what stops them doing it to others? How many people called out this motivation? 2 of how many?

    -------------------------------------------------

    "which scholar claimed that John 20:28 means precisely that "Oh my God, this is Michael the Archangel, who will come invisibly in 1914 to appoint Russell!" Until you find this, explain to me what the word αὐτῷ means in this verse." -

    ok im going to assume this is a joke because we both know what I meant... its not hard to figure out..

    look up scholarly articles on thsi subject and you will see how many DENY it affirms anything.

    Rahner for one...

    The pronoun is easy to explain... its kind of required.

    and when did I say it meant "Oh my God"? I didn't, its just interesting its an address not in the vocative form - But all other occurences in the NT Christ is addressed as "kuriee" this being the ONLY exception

    see also Rev 7:14 - Where an angel is addressed as "Kuree"

    But it is interesting to note that alot of bibles render it as an explanation or doxology rather than a direct address. (Biblehub is the source)

    "The problem is that you think of "the scholars" as some universal infallible magisterium who collectively establish The Truth." - I see them as far more reasonable and evidence based than you... you are NOT evidence based at all.. theologically biased and self serving is how I would describe you or atleast is how you come off to me. Your right, everyone else is wrong (1. not true 2. makes you look like a know it all - someone I dont particularly like), what Origen says is NEVER what he meant according to you... why should I beleive you? over many others who know more than you?

    Wallace and Robertson are both ones to be "argumentive citers" they will cite examples if they think they can get away with it... I may even email Wallace myself and ask him what he thinks (citing your citations of him to see if he agrees with your portrayal aswell - Which I know is not 100% accurate, I own and have read GGBTB cover to cover)

    "The absence of a need to consider alternatives like δεσπότης or θεῖος stems from their unsuitability to convey the same theological weight."- so why does 2 dictionaries I have checked list "δεσπότης " as a synonym to Kurios? check biblehub

    notice in the contexts of the relationship specified the word is employed rather than Kurios, because it seeks to convey a certain relationship rather than a more general "authoritative" relationship, which Kurios would serve the purpose of.

    "δεσπότης does not carry this association." - Kurious is more a general term. the other is restricted in its usage hence not used, thats your explanation for one.

    again a simple google search will explain the others

    "Any distinction between the terms must be contextualized rather than assumed to reflect a lower status for Christ." - I look at word usage as that word usage - I dont try to fit my theological agenda around the facts, rather the other way around. That is scholarship

    So what does Origen mean when he says the angels are divine? does he mean lower status?

    Or "God- by participation"? does he mean lower status? I think he means something else.

    ""it's kind of godlike, but it's not really that, it’s not a big deal, you know, just like Psalm 82 and Exodus 7:1." " - to say these are not a big deal is undercutting the divine authority Moses had.. and goes against as you would put it "common consensus"

    "The rendering "a god" is precisely the explicit denial of this identity" - if I was a trinitarian I would interpret this as "a divine Person"

    as is done in other places.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Early Christians engaged in vigorous theological debates, but this does not imply a lack of coherence in their beliefs.

    Exactly. The various attempts to describe Jesus in unbiblical terms caused the early church leaders to write an unprecidented amount of literature on the subject. As a result, we have today a consistent record of orthodoxy that connects scripture with the apostles to the leaders they trained and so on, all the way to the Nicene creed. That unaminous creed was made by hundereds of congregation leaders from a wide geopraphical area (the Roman empire).

    As usual, we all have the same evidence but peoples' presuppositions inevitabley are imposed on that evidence. For the skeptic atheist, defense by the early congregation leaders against heresies is evidence of "raging" battles of orthodoxy and reason to be skeptical.

    For the historian, the written record provides an unprecedented view into an unbroken chain of belief regarding the nature of Jesus as "God manifest in the flesh".

    How could Jesus be viewed otherwise given the facts? Think about it: A man known as a miracle worker even by his enemies, who claimed to be God predicted that he would die a sacrificial death and raise himself from the dead three days later. Then, he did it.

    If you were there and witnessed these events, how could you view Jesus as anything other than God? The fact that many people believed a man who walked out of a tomb is not surprising at all.

    Later, a few individuals who did not witness these events questioned this and were roundly denounced by congregation leaders as not in line with what happened.

    Good theology (as opposed to bad (theology) must accomodate ALL scriptures on the subject, not just some. For instance, Unitarians will point to biblical statements like: "The father is greater than I am" and announce that Jesus is not God. Believers will point out that not only is that statement true, but other statements made by Jesus are ALSO true, such as: Jesus posessing ALL power in heaven and earth.

    For a skeptic rooted in materialism, he can never reconcile these statements and he predictably concludes the bible is incoherent.

    But, if you use biblical definitions to explain biblical statements, coherence is self-evident. It all depends on whether or not you WANT the bible to make sense or not.


Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit