Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Rivergang

  joey

  👍
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  Sea Breeze

  Yes, it's a common objection that if Jesus Christ is God, why did He not clearly and directly declare it? The argument that Jesus never explicitly says the words "I am God" and therefore cannot be fully divine misunderstands the way Jesus communicated His identity and the way Scripture reveals theological truths.

  
  

  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thess. 5: 23
  

  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4 : 12

  God is a Spirit - John 4: 24

  The reason that JW's and others that except their heresy have a hard time accepting that Jesus is God is not because they have a hard time imagining the nature of God. It is because, they cannot imagine their own nature... they reject the biblical definition of the nature of man. For a secularist, their most highly protected pet belief is that when you die, you will be unconscious. The biblical idea that a person will still be conscious somewhere for eternity, is utter terror for them to accept. For them, that reality must be suppressed at all cost.

  The chart above clearly illustrates how Jesus (using scriptural definitions) is both fully man and fully God at the same time.

  This explains so-called "contradictions" that those using secular definitions of words must ignore to promote the concept that Jesus was less that God ... like:

  1. Jesus has all power in heaven and earth, yet his father is greater than he

  2. No one knows the day of the hour except the father

  3. How could he resurrect himself from the dead as he predicted, while he was dead.

  Not only did Jesus rightly accept worship, forgive sins and accept people calling him "God",(Jn. 20:28); he did something that no one could duplicate unless they were God... resurrect himself from the dead, while he was dead.

  I lay down my life, that I might take it again....No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again....And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? - John 10: 17-21

  While people struggled with Jesus' miracles and predictions before he was cricified, most understood his nature perfectly clear after he resurrected himself from the dead.
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  slimboyfat

  The straightforward reading of Colossians 1:15–20 is that Jesus is the firstborn of creation who in turn was God’s agent in creating the universe. This theme of God’s Word/Wisdom/firstborn being used by God to create everything is familiar from Jewish texts such as Proverbs, Wisdom, and the works of Philo.

  Scholar Maurice Casey explains it this way:

  Similar remarks may be made about Colossians 1.15-20. So much of it has static parallels from Jewish speculation about Wisdom that we must infer an author who felt that what had previously been believed of Wisdom was true of Jesus. It begins with Jesus' pre-existence and role in creation: "who is an image of the invisible God, firstbom of all creation, for through him was created everything in heaven and on earth." This description must mean that Jesus, rather than Wisdom, or as Wisdom, was the first created being (of Prov 8.22f; Philo, Qu in Gen., IV, 97). This was written centuries before Arius, when no-one believed that Jesus was the second person of the Trinity. The assertions that he was created before the world and participated in its creation were a significant advance on previous thought. They could not have been made unless it was supposed that Jesus was pre-existent, as Wisdom was perceived to have existed before the creation of the universe that she was believed to have created. Colossians 1.16-17 expands this midrashically, using Proverbs 8.22-29, and moving back from Proverbs 8.22 to Genesis 1.1.42.

  Maurice Casey, From Jewish Prophet to Gentile God: The Origins and Development of New Testament Christology (1991), page 115.

  
  
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  vienne

  I put off posting this hoping someone else would address it. Didn't happen.

  This responds to an earlier post by SeaBr. He/she posted an image of a tablet, claiming that it called Jesus God. He/She claimed it dated to 230 CE. He/She also wrote: “This is 100 years before Christianity became the state religion and was supposedly corrupted by Constantine according to Watchtower.”

  In point of fact, the date is in dispute. That’s true of most finds from this era, and I’m not competent enough to add to that debate. However, the tablet does not call Jesus God. The tablet lists women honored by the church. The only reference to Jesus is in the lower right corner. There we find the Greek word “ichthys” (fish). It’s an acronym for Iesous Christos. Theou Yios Soter; Ιησουζ Χρισιοζ Θεου Υιοζ Σωτηρ. Translated, that’s “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior”

  In that light, the tablet does not call Jesus God. It names him as the son of God. Despite Trinitarian twisting of scripture, it limits Jesus’ station to that of son. Paul reminds us that the Father is Jesus' God, “the God and father of our lord Jesus.”

  The Watchtower does not point to Constantine was the corrupter of Christianity in the sense that he was responsible for the Great Apostasy. They date its origin to late in the Apostolic Era, citing 2 Thess. 2:7. Mainline Protestants sometime date the Catholic Apostasy to Constantine’s day. What the Watchtower has claimed is that by an organizing council he founded “Christendom.”
• 

  aqwsed12345

  Maurice Casey, like many others, misunderstands the term prototokos ("firstborn"). In Colossians 1:15, Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation," but this does not imply that He is part of creation. Instead, it signifies preeminence, supremacy, and rank, not temporal priority. Prototokos is used throughout the Bible to indicate rank or status rather than literal birth order. For example in Psalm 89:27 "firstborn" signifies David’s preeminence, not that he was literally the first king. In Exodus 4:22 Israel is called God's "firstborn son," not because it was the first nation created, but because it holds a unique covenantal status. Similarly, in Colossians 1:15, Jesus is "firstborn" because He is supreme over all creation as its Creator, not because He is part of creation.

  Paul immediately clarifies the meaning of "firstborn": "For by Him all things were created…all things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together" (Col. 1:16–17). Jesus cannot simultaneously be a part of creation (first created) and also the Creator of "all things." The phrase "all things" (τὰ πάντα) is all-encompassing, leaving no room for Jesus to be part of the created order.

  If Paul intended to convey that Jesus was the first created being, he would have used protoktistos ("first-created"), a term available in Greek. Instead, he uses prototokos to emphasize Christ’s supreme authority and unique relationship to creation. Early Church Fathers, such as Athanasius and Basil the Great, emphasized this distinction to refute Arian interpretations of Colossians 1:15.

  Casey argues that Colossians 1:15–20 draws from Jewish wisdom traditions, such as Proverbs 8:22–29, to portray Jesus as a created being. However, this interpretation is problematic for several reasons. Proverbs 8 describes wisdom (Sophia) poetically and metaphorically. While the New Testament identifies Jesus as the incarnate "Wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:24), it does not mean He is literally the figure of wisdom described in Proverbs. The Septuagint translates Proverbs 8:22 as "The Lord ‘created’ me" (ἔκτισέν με), but the Hebrew term qanah can mean "acquired" or "possessed." Many translations (e.g., ESV, NASB) render it as "The Lord possessed me," aligning with the idea of eternal wisdom belonging to God, not a created entity.

  Paul in Colossians 1:15–20 goes beyond Jewish wisdom traditions by explicitly identifying Jesus as Creator, not as a created being. Proverbs 8:22–29 speaks of wisdom as a personified attribute of God, not a distinct person. Colossians 1:16–17 affirms that Jesus is the agent of creation, through whom "all things" were made. This is incompatible with the idea that He is Himself part of creation.

  Casey claims that Colossians reflects a pre-Trinitarian Christology, in which Jesus is viewed as a created being, akin to Wisdom in Jewish thought. This argument ignores early Christian understanding and the progression of revelation: Colossians 1:15–20 clearly portrays Jesus as pre-existent and divine: "He is the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15): This statement parallels Hebrews 1:3, which describes Jesus as the "exact imprint of [God's] nature." It emphasizes His divine nature, not a created status. "He is before all things" (Col. 1:17): This affirms Christ’s eternal pre-existence, consistent with John 1:1–3 ("In the beginning was the Word…").

  Long before the doctrine of the Trinity was formally defined, early Christians worshipped Jesus as divine (e.g., Philippians 2:5–11). Paul’s Christology in Colossians 1 is fully consistent with this practice. The Nicene Creed (325 AD) clarified that Jesus is "begotten, not made," reflecting what had already been believed and practiced in the early Church. Philo’s Logos was a philosophical abstraction, not a divine person. While Paul uses similar terminology, he radically redefines it to identify Jesus as the personal Creator and sustainer of the universe.

  Casey’s argument that Colossians 1:15–20 is merely a "midrash" on Jewish Wisdom speculation collapses under scrutiny. Colossians integrates Christ’s role as Creator, sustainer, and redeemer, surpassing Jewish wisdom traditions. For example "In Him all things hold together" (Col. 1:17): This goes beyond Wisdom’s role in creation to assert Christ’s ongoing sustenance of the universe. "Through Him to reconcile all things to Himself" (Col. 1:20): Jewish wisdom literature does not ascribe a redemptive role to Wisdom. This is uniquely Christian. Paul’s purpose in writing Colossians was to combat heresies that diminished Christ’s supremacy (e.g., early forms of Gnosticism). Far from presenting Jesus as a created being, Paul elevates Him as preeminent over all creation and fully divine.

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  @vienne

  The Greek inscription on the Megiddo mosaic reads:

  
  

  ΠΡΟΣΗΝΙΚΕΝ ἈΚΕΠΤΟΥΣ Ἡ ΦΙΛΟΘΕΟΣ ΤΗΝ ΤΡΑΠΕΖΑΝ Θ̅Ω̅ Ἰ̅Υ̅ Χ̅Υ̅ ΜΝΗΜΟΣΥΝΟΝ.
  Προσῆνικεν Ἀκεπτους ἡ φιλόθεος τὴν τράπεζαν Θεῷ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ μνημόσυνον.
  Prosēniken Akeptous hē philotheos tēn trapezan Theō Iēsou Christō mnēmosynon.
  "The God-loving Akeptous has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial."

  The inscription abbreviates sacred names (nomina sacra), including ΘΩ (Theō, dative of Theos, God) and ΙΥ ΧΥ (Iesou Christou, Jesus Christ). These abbreviations are standard in Christian epigraphy for expressing divine titles, unambiguously linking the words “God” and “Jesus Christ.” The structure of the inscription directly connects "God" to "Jesus Christ." There is no grammatical indication that “God” and “Jesus Christ” are separate entities in this phrase. The phrase reads naturally as "God Jesus Christ," reflecting early Christian belief in Christ's deity. The "ichthys" symbol, found in the mosaic, is not the central focus of the inscription but an accompanying Christian symbol. While “ichthys” (fish) is an acronym for “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior,” it does not negate the explicit textual reference to Jesus as God in the main inscription.

  The claim that the inscription primarily honors women and only references Jesus indirectly is inaccurate. While the mosaic does include references to women (notably Akeptous, the benefactor), the theological focus of the inscription is on the act of offering the table (likely an altar) to “God Jesus Christ.” This demonstrates early Christian worship centered on Jesus as divine.

  The claim that the mosaic supports a non-Trinitarian understanding (e.g., Jesus as only the “Son of God”) misunderstands the linguistic and theological context. In early Christian theology, calling Jesus "Son of God" does not diminish his deity but affirms it. In John 5:18, the Jews accuse Jesus of making himself "equal with God" precisely because he claimed to be the Son of God. The reference to “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” in Paul’s letters (e.g., Ephesians 1:3) does not deny Christ’s deity. Instead, it affirms the relational distinction within the Godhead, consistent with Trinitarian theology.

  The argument that the mosaic’s date is in dispute is accurate to some extent, as dating ancient artifacts is often debated. However the proposed date of 230 CE places it firmly within a period when Christian belief in Jesus' deity was widespread, long before Constantine’s influence. The mosaic is significant as early material evidence of Christian worship and Christological belief, consistent with writings from the 2nd and 3rd centuries (e.g., Ignatius of Antioch referring to “our God Jesus Christ”).

  The Watchtower's claim that Christianity was "corrupted" in the Apostolic Era does not align with the textual or archaeological evidence. Early Christian writings (e.g., Ignatius, Irenaeus) and artifacts like the Megiddo mosaic demonstrate a consistent belief in Jesus’ deity. The suggestion that Constantine founded “Christendom” is historically inaccurate. While Constantine played a role in legitimizing Christianity within the Roman Empire, the theological foundations of Christian belief, including Christ's deity, predate him by centuries.

  So the Megiddo mosaic explicitly refers to Jesus Christ as God. Attempts to reinterpret or diminish its significance rely on speculative readings of the text or theological biases. The mosaic, combined with other early Christian writings and artifacts, affirms that the deity of Jesus was a core belief well before Constantine, contrary to both Arian interpretations and Watchtower claims. This archaeological find underscores the early church's worship of Christ as divine, rooted in both scripture and tradition.
• 

  Rattigan350

  Is Jesus the creator?

  He never said he was.

  You are relying on outsiders like John and Paul, ones who did not experience the creation process.

  What did Jesus say who was the creator.

  Matt 6:26 "Observe intently the birds of heaven, they do not sow seed or reap or gather into storehouses, yet your heavenly Father feeds them"

  Jesus' Father, Jehovah, doesn't actually feed the birds. What he did was created the rain cycle of water evaporating and going to the clouds and rain. And also photsynthesis to have plants grow. That is an automated process designed by Jesus' Father.

  Jehovah God is the architect of the material world.

  While Jesus was the actual worker making those things. Prov 8:30 said of him "Then I was beside him as a master worker"

  Jesus didn't say he did that or that he created anything. He gave credit to his Father.

  So why do people go against him and want to make him the creator because an outsider said a verse about that?
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  Sea Breeze

  Rattigan,

  You are just ripping out verses you don't like, just like Watchtower does. You seem to claim to want to believe Jesus, but you do not want to believe his hand picked apostles who were full of the holy spirit as they wrote scripture.

  You believe the bible when you want to.

  Care to expalin how Jesus resurrected himself from the dead while he was dead, without being God?

  In John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). Try raising yourself from the dead, while dead.
  

  Jesus did something infinitely greater than simply declaring he was God. Anyone can do that.

  Yea, he was God alright. No doubt about it.

  "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" - JESUS
• 

  Rattigan350

  !Seabreeze you stated " Paul explicitly states that his gospel was received directly by revelation from Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:12)."
  
  Full context here.vs 11 "that the good news I declared to you is not of human origin;" It is the good news that he received from Jesus that he stated, not the history of the universe.

  You acknowledge that Gen 1:26 " God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Sounds like Jehovah is speaking to another. The another is his son. The master worker. However, it is clear throughout gen 1 it says God in every verse. And starting in Gen 2;7 it says Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Nothing about Jesus giving life there. Vs 8,9,15,18,19,21,22 state Jehovah God.
  

  So why they need to ask if Jesus is the creator when it specifically states that Jehovah God?
  
  

  "Firstborn of all creation" (v. 15) does not mean Jesus is part of creation. " Why do people continually say that? Jesus is not the supreme being so he had a beginning. That is why he and others called him God's son. Paul's calling him the firstborn of all creation shows that.

  There is nothing wrong or bad about saying that Jesus was created to make him the son of God.

  You all in your attempts to elevate Jesus forget 1 John 5:13 "I write you these things so that you may know that you have life everlasting, you who put your faith in the name of the Son of God". He specifically was termed that for a reason. And using that shows we acknowledge that he was created.
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  Rattigan350

  Seabreeze, now you are getting crazy by saying "Care to expalin how Jesus resurrected himself from the dead while he was dead, without being God."

  Jesus did not resurrect himself simply because he was dead.

  Ps 115:17 "The dead do not praise Jah;Nor do any who go down into the silence of death."

  If the dead can't praise Jehovah, then they can't resurrect themselves.

  In John 2, Jesus did not predict that he would raise himself.

  The Jews asked him "What sign can you show us,
  Jesus said Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

  He did not say that he would be resurrected in 3 days.

  It was John who added " he was talking about the temple of his body."

  Tear down this temple, his body by killing him, and he would raise the new temple.

  Jesus' raising of the temple meant the starting of the spiritual temple in action, by having the perfect sacrifice and then his presenting of it to his Father.

  He wasn't saying that he would raise himself from the dead. And his body was not raised up.
  

  I don't understand what your purpose is. You mentioned Gal 1:12 about Paul receiving the good news.

  Your teaching that Jesus is the creator and that he raised his body from the dead is not consistent with that
  
  
  
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  Sea Breeze

  Rattigan,

  Please explain how Jesus can have ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH while and the same time declare the Father is greater than he.

  How can Jesus raise himself from the dead, while dead, without being God? Doesn't that make him a false prophet if he didn't?

  How can he have the highest name in the universe, even higher than Jehovah? ("the name that is above every name" - Phil 2: 9)

  This chart explains how all those statements are true:

  

  If you cannot explain these seeming contradictions with your unbiblical view, then just admit that your view has failed to reconcile all the scriptures.... And ALL the scriptures are inspired, not just the ones you like.

  You got the wrong Jesus Rattigan. Unless of course you can logically and coherently answer the questions your view raises.