Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    peacefulpete : The [Logos] concepts were much older and pervasive than a single author. It is entirely possible the author of John never read Philo but was drawing from a larger milieu of thought.

    Not only entirely possible but quite likely. Was it not the Stoics who identified the logos spermatikos as the cosmic source of order? How easy for an educated Jew to connect the Logos of John to this "larger milieu of thought", to this cosmic source of order, especially long before any councils had decided what they had to believe.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Also look at Rev 19 & 22 again. After the objection of John's attempt to worship the messengers, he directs him to worship God. The same word. But as it is, the text does appear awkward and confounding in light of modern Christain sensitivities. It seems to me that we have one of two options. This is an early adjustment to the controversial work in which an editor added the objection of the angel to refute the then objectionable worship of an angel of God or the original author/compiler was editing his source. If an early form of the text held the angel to be an emanation of God, (as I believe to be the case in other sections) the worship might have been perfectly acceptable to the writer. As I mentioned before many believe the work was a compilation of related Jewish apocalyptic scenes reworked by a Christian.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    This story of the Great Angel in Joshuah 5 strikes me as a parallel:

    13 And it came to pass when Joshua was in Jericho, that he looked up with his eyes and saw a man standing before him, and a drawn sword in his hand; and Joshua drew near and said to him, Art thou for us or on the side of our enemies?
    14 And he said to him, I am now come, the chief captain of the host of the Lord.
    15 And Joshua fell on his face upon the earth, and said to him, Lord, what commandest thou thy servant?
    16 And the captain of the Lord's host said to Joshua, Loose thy shoe off thy feet, for the place whereon thou now standest is holy
  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I know I'm getting carried away, but nothing was on TV, lol. I found another interesting parallel. 2 Esdras 4

    Then the angel that had been sent to me, whose name was Uriel, answered 2 and said to me, “Your understanding has utterly failed regarding this world, and do you think you can comprehend the way of the Most High?” 3 Then I said, “Yes, my lord.” And he replied to me, “I have been sent to show you...

    (He then mirrors the Job sequence of demonstrating the ignorance of humans compared to God, then delivers an apocalyptic message of the timing of the end of time)

    11 how, then, can your mind comprehend the way of the Most High?[c] And how can one who is already worn out by the corrupt world understand incorruption?”[d] When I heard this, I fell on my face[e
    38 Then I answered and said, “But, O sovereign Lord, all of us also are full of ungodliness. 39 It is perhaps on account of us that the time of threshing is delayed for the righteous—on account of the sins of those who inhabit the earth.”

    Here is an apocalyptic story an angel is sent by the Most High but is himself addressed as Sovereign Lord. Ezra is seen falling on his face.


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Ascension of Isaiah

    7:
    21. And I fell on my face to worship him, but the angel who conducted me did not permit me, but said unto me: "Worship neither throne nor angel which belongs to the six heavens - for for this cause I was sent to conduct thee j- until I tell thee in the seventh heaven.
    8:
    4. And I said to the angel who conducted me: "What is this which I see, my Lord?"
    5. And he said: "I am not thy lord, but thy fellow servant."
    9:
    6. And the second whom I saw was on he left of my Lord. And I asked: "Who is this?" and he said unto me: "Worship Him, for He is the angel of the Holy Spirit, who speaketh in thee and the rest of the righteous."

    I suspect the Ascension of Isaiah is underappreciated as an early Christian work. Some have suggested it was a Jewish work redacted by a Christian much like Revelation. Anyway, the story is complex with many levels of angels and beings, the highest level 'angels' are worshipped, who then in turn worship the Christ, who then worships El most High.

    It's a clear parallel to Revelation with the lower angel objecting to being referred to as Lord and directing worship to another.

    (But note that Isaiah continues to do so, like John in Rev repeats his attempt to worship, which is odd. Perhaps the objection in Rev isn't an emendation but served an angelological purpose?)

    Is the objection in Rev 19 and 22 parallel in that the lower angel's objecting is due to his station? Other greater angels are described in a much more theophanic manner in Revelation much like in the A of I, perhaps suggesting higher rank or as stand-ins for the Most High. I don't know.

    The development of angels is a complicated and long process. They became characters in their own right in Jewish and Christian mythology, not just as emanations.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    A very similar scene is in Epistle of the Apostles (140-50CE)

    3 In God, the Lord, the Son of God, do we believe, that he is the word become flesh: that of Mary the holy virgin he took a body, begotten of the Holy Ghost, not of the will (lust) of the flesh, but by the will of God: that he was wrapped in swaddling clothes in Bethlehem and made manifest, and grew up and came to ripe age, when also we beheld

    13 Now that which he revealed unto us is this, which he spake: It came to pass when I was about . . . to come hither from the Father of all things, and passed through the heavens, then did I put on the wisdom of the Father, and I put on the power of his might. I was in heaven, and I passed by the archangels and the angels in their likeness, like as if I were one of them, among the princedoms and powers. I passed through them because I possessed the wisdom of him that had sent me. Now the chief captain of the angels, [is] Michael, and Gabriel and Uriel and Raphael followed me unto the fifth firmament . . . , for they thought in their heart that I was one of them; such power was given me of my Father. And on that day did I adorn the archangels with a wonderful voice . . . , so that they should go unto the altar of the Father and serve and fulfil the ministry until I should return unto him. And so wrought I the likeness by my wisdom; for I became all things in all, that I might praise the dispensation of the Father and fulfil the glory of him that sent me . . . and return unto him. . . .
    14 For ye know that the angel Gabriel brought the message unto Mary. And we answered: Yea, Lord. He answered and said unto us: Remember ye not, then, that I said unto you a little while ago: I became an angel among the angels, and I became all things in all? We said unto him: Yea, Lord. Then answered he and said unto us: On that day whereon I took the form of the angel Gabriel, I appeared unto Mary and spake with her. Her heart accepted me, and she believed . . . , and I formed myself and entered into her body. I became flesh, for I alone was a minister unto myself in that which concerned Mary . . . in the appearance of the shape of an angel. For so must I needs . . . do. Thereafter did I return to my Father . . .

    In the Ascension of Isaiah, the Christ descends through the levels of heaven undetected by taking on the forms of the angels in each level. Eventually he takes a body that appears human, is killed, frees those in sheol and returns triumphantly. There is a large section of obvious harmonizing Christian addition detailing his birth and time on earth. Now, here in this Epistle of the Apostles version Christ is explicitly identifying as the angel Gabriel (or impersonating him). He takes on any form able to become anyone. It's all an interesting study worthy of more time than I have.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The claim that Hebrews 1:6 and the use of proskyneō in Scripture do not imply worship of Jesus as God is fundamentally flawed. The argument rests on a misunderstanding of the Greek term proskyneō, a selective approach to biblical texts, and an inconsistent treatment of worship as it pertains to Jesus. While proskyneō can also signify homage or obeisance to a superior, its usage in the NT often implies worship in a divine sense, particularly when directed toward Jesus. The context determines whether proskyneō signifies mere reverence or true worship. For instance, when the wise men "fell down and worshipped" the child Jesus (Matthew 2:11), this act is presented in a religious context, signaling recognition of Jesus' divine status. Similarly, the disciples worshipped Jesus after He calmed the storm, exclaiming, "Truly you are the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33). These are not acts of mere respect but of divine worship. The Watchtower's claim that proskyneō does not indicate worship when applied to Jesus contradicts its own translation principles. In Revelation 5:13-14, both God the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) receive identical worship from all creation: "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and power forever and ever." The parallel construction demonstrates that Jesus is worshipped as God.

    Hebrews 1:6 quotes the Septuagint's rendering of Deuteronomy 32:43 or Psalm 97:7, applying it to Christ: "And let all God’s angels worship Him." In its original OT context, this passage refers to Yahweh. By attributing this divine worship to Jesus, the author of Hebrews unequivocally identifies Him as God. The Watchtower’s alteration of "worship" to "do obeisance" in its New World Translation reflects theological bias rather than linguistic fidelity. Notably, the same term proskyneō is translated as "worship" when referring to Jehovah in the NWT (e.g., Matthew 4:10). The argument that proskyneō in Hebrews 1:6 means only homage collapses under the weight of its biblical and theological context. The angels are commanded to worship Jesus as part of their acknowledgment of His divine status, not as a mere created being.

    The NT presents Jesus as the object of prayer, worship, and divine attributes. Acts 7:59 records Stephen praying to Jesus: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." This mirrors OT prayers directed to Yahweh (Psalm 31:5). If Jesus were not divine, this would constitute idolatry. In Mark 2:5-7, Jesus forgives sins, a prerogative that belongs solely to God. The scribes correctly recognized this act as a claim to divinity, yet Jesus does not correct them; instead, He demonstrates His authority by healing the paralytic. Philippians 2:10-11 applies Isaiah 45:23 to Jesus, stating, "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Isaiah’s original passage declares this worship as due to Yahweh alone. Paul’s application to Jesus underscores His divine identity.

    The Watchtower Society’s shifting stance on the worship of Jesus undermines its credibility. Early Watchtower publications endorsed the worship of Jesus, as noted in the writings of C.T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford. For instance, the 1945 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses affirmed, "Let all the angels of God worship Him" in Hebrews 1:6. It was only in 1954 that the Society began prohibiting the worship of Jesus, not based on new biblical insights but on doctrinal revisionism. This inconsistency suggests theological convenience rather than faithful exegesis.

    Philo’s Logos is fundamentally different from John’s. For Philo, the Logos is a semi-divine intermediary—neither fully divine nor fully personal. It serves as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material world, functioning as an abstract principle of reason and order. John’s Logos is fully divine, personal, and eternal. John 1:1 explicitly states, “The Word was God.” John 1:14 declares, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” This is a radical departure from Philo’s philosophical abstraction. The Logos in John is not a mere emanation or cosmic principle but the Second Person of the Trinity. The concept of the Logos in John is deeply rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly the idea of God’s Word (dabar) as active in creation (Genesis 1:3, Psalm 33:6), revelation (Isaiah 55:11), and salvation (Psalm 107:20). John’s Gospel connects this Jewish understanding with the incarnational reality of Jesus Christ. While John may have been aware of Hellenistic philosophical concepts, his Logos theology is firmly anchored in the Hebrew Scriptures and the revelation of Christ. The Stoic concept of the logos spermatikos (a principle of rationality permeating the cosmos) is impersonal and fundamentally incompatible with the personal Logos of John. The Christian Logos is not a universal rational principle but a distinct Person who entered history through the Incarnation. So while Philo and the Stoics provide historical context for the term Logos, John’s theology transcends these frameworks. The Logos in John’s Gospel is a unique and divinely revealed concept, rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures and culminating in the person of Jesus Christ.

    Angels in the Hebrew Scriptures are always subordinate to God and serve as His messengers or agents (e.g., Genesis 19, Exodus 3:2). They do not receive worship, as worship is reserved for Yahweh alone (Deuteronomy 6:13). In Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, John attempts to worship an angel but is rebuked: “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers. Worship God.” This explicitly reinforces the NT’s strict monotheism and the prohibition of worshiping angels. Jesus, however, is worshiped throughout the NT (e.g., Matthew 28:17, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:6), highlighting His unique status as God incarnate. The distinction between Jesus and angels is consistently maintained, as seen in Hebrews 1, which declares Jesus as superior to all angels. While apocryphal texts like the Ascension of Isaiah and the Epistle of the Apostles provide fascinating insights into early Christian thought, they are not authoritative Scripture and often reflect speculative or syncretistic ideas. The hierarchical descriptions of angels in these texts do not equate Jesus with angels but rather emphasize His transcendence. For example, in the Ascension of Isaiah, Christ is depicted as descending through angelic ranks, assuming their forms, but ultimately surpassing them in glory and authority. The argument that Jesus is equated with the Angel of the Lord misunderstands the typological and christological connections in Scripture. The Angel of the Lord in the OT often speaks and acts as Yahweh (e.g., Exodus 3:2-6), prefiguring the Incarnation. However, the NT clarifies that Jesus is not merely an angel but Yahweh Himself made flesh (John 8:58, Philippians 2:6-11). So the NT and early Christian theology clearly distinguish Jesus from angels. While angels are servants of God, Jesus is God incarnate, worthy of worship and adoration. Apocryphal texts may provide background for certain theological developments but cannot supersede the authority of Scripture.

    The “Two Powers in Heaven” concept in Second Temple Judaism was often used to describe an intermediary figure (e.g., the Angel of the Lord) who acted on behalf of Yahweh. However, this does not imply a belief in two deities but rather highlights the complex ways in which God’s actions were perceived. The NT redefines this concept by presenting Jesus as the unique Son of God who shares fully in the divine identity (John 10:30, Colossians 2:9). Jesus is not a subordinate power but one with the Father. Describing the Logos as an emanation diminishes His full divinity. The NT consistently affirms that Jesus is fully God, not a derived or secondary being. John 1:1-3 identifies the Logos as eternal, uncreated, and the agent of all creation. The claim that Yahweh is absent from the NT is baseless. The NT applies Yahweh’s name and attributes to Jesus (e.g., Philippians 2:10-11 cites Isaiah 45:23). This demonstrates continuity between the OT and NT in affirming the divinity of Christ. So the NT transforms Second Temple Jewish concepts to reveal the full truth of the Trinity. Jesus is not a second power or emanation but the eternal Son of God, fully equal with the Father and the Spirit.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    (Revelation 22:8) "Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things."


    Are we to believe that an apostle of Christ would try to worship an angel - twice????????

    Boogerman,

    The fundamental problem is not evidence. There are volumes of that. Like I said many times before, the problem is one of definitions. I suspect that the posters on this thread critical of the biblical claim in 1 Timothy 3: 16 God was manifest in the flesh, have simply failed to shed the heretical views on soul and spirit taught to them by their former Watchtower overseers.

    This is a very convenient belief to retain because it soothes the soul by believing that there is no chance that their consciousness will survive death. The sinful mind senses that to be comfortable in this life a person merely needs to reject the tri-partite nature of man and look forward to an eternity of nothingness.

    Because of this foundational false premise, Unitarians frequently state that 1+1+1 = 3 not one. Yet they have no problem believeing that H2O can exist as a solid, gas, or liquid and yet be one substance.

    Water: 1+1+1 = 1 substance & 3 manifestations

    Water doesn't create an existential crisis like the nature of man and the nature of God does. So, there are no 24 page arguments on the nature of water because it is no threat to our well being.

    I suspect All of the posters on this thread critical of the unbroken chain of evidence on the deity of Christ from the eyewitnesses of the Resurection down to the present day DO NOT accept the biblical definition of our soul and spirit as PERSONS in the bible.

    Please correct me if I am wrong. But, can anyone of these posters below state that they accept the biblical characterization of soul and spirit as persons?

    Peaceful Pete

    Duran

    Rattigan

    Earnest

    SlimBoyFat

    Blotty

    To qualify as a man, Jesus must have the below three parts. To quality as God he only needs one. This is the ONLY paradigmn that accomodates all scriptures and sayings of Jesus.

    Water is 1+1+1 = 1 substance existing in 3 states

    Jesus is 1+1+1 = 1 being existing in 3 states

    A person may not accept this reality, but it is consistent and logically coherent. Unitarianism is inconsistent with all of the scriptures and is thus internally flawed.


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Sea Breeze...My participation here is for the purpose of discussing the theological development of late Judaism/ early Christianity. I am not arguing from a contrarian ideological stance. In fact, in the course of this discussion I have improved my understanding and adjusted my opinion. I'm not promoting anything other than fact checking.

    The topic of the conception of human nature is also of interest. Start a thread about your views on this and we can peer into the history of the beliefs.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    I am not arguing from a contrarian ideological stance.

    We all argue from a presuppositional stance, a worldview that we impose on data. A materialistic view of the nature of man is the underlying problem that you and others are having.

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