Halcon, all of those originate in the brain, a physical object. I consider them physical phenomena.
Interesting...so the simple thought of something makes that which we are thinking of physical?...
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Halcon
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Vanderhoven7
For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son: THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23
Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not entitled to the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.
Relative honor to God through an angel was reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not do that!...Worship God." Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT) 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151
The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.
What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped?
Language of Scripture:
"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.
Scriptural Example:
There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciples for improper proskyneo of Himself. Only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.
Scriptural Instruction:
There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.
Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?
Form and Content:
"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong." (W.T. March 1880. p.83)
Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:
a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11
b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8
c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3
d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and cares? Mat. 11:28
e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2
f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14
g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16
h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?
eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.
i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?
e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang: Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain to receive power and wealth and Wisdom and strength and HONOR AND GLORY AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.
j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?
e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings; Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last, The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12
My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28 Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel, Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23 All power in heaven and earth is Yours; You created all things; and without you there was nothing made. Jn.1:3
And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8 May all angels and men worship you continually. Heb.1:6 Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.
k. Worship of Lamb in heaven by all creation
“And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.” Rev. 5:13-14 NWT 1961
WHICH ELEMENTS OF PROSKYNEO (ABOVE) DO YOU PRACTICE?
Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?
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peacefulpete
Do love, fear and hate...hope and dread ...fall under the category of 'physical' or 'metaphysical'?
That question is loaded with semantics. All thoughts and feelings, no matter how ludicrous or misplaced, originate in the physical machinery of the mind. Yes, believing even supernatural thoughts and unjustified feelings is a physical process. But others the judging the credibility of those thoughts and feelings involves evidence. The man who thinks everyone is out to get him is judged as paranoid delusional unless there is some real evidence to support it. The difficulty is when the person themselves persists in delusion or finds others with similar delusions.
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Halcon
All thoughts and feelings, no matter how ludicrous or misplaced, originate in the physical machinery of the mind.
But are they physical? Tonus seems to consider them so. This despite love and hope having no physical shape, color or form.
And can't love or fear be intensely real with zero evidence of showing it?
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peacefulpete
Something related but not discussed is the role the Logos played in sustaining creation, holding it together and keeping it from descending into chaos. The Wisdom literature featured that role, Wisdom dwelt with creation, kept the cycles in motion, the boundaries and limits in place. This flowed seamlessly through Philo's logos to the Christ.
Although she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; Wisdom 7
"The Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated." Philo, On the Creation of the World"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. Heb 1:3
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Col 1
It all goes back to the ancient cosmic struggle against chaos. Another huge topic.
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peacefulpete
And can't love or fear be intensely real with zero evidence of showing it?
Semantics. It can be real in a subjective sense. But love can also be an illusion if not positively evidenced, and fear be a product of false interpretation.
We are definitely entering the domain of phenomenology.
My feelings of hate fear or love are experiential 'realities' to me. The purest hypothetical religious forms share that domain, subjective experiential 'truths'. It is only when I make statements that involve objective realities that religion overreaches. Then the statements are forced to compete against the domains of science.
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Halcon
But love can also be an illusion if not positively evidenced.
If not positively evidenced? How would this be done?
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Blotty
AQWSED:
You should really research this stuff before you open your mouth and call out the NWT on "mistranslations" Ever checked Youngs Translation? and how he renders the 2 verses?
How does Goodspeed's Bible render Matt 4:10??
any competent person could look it up and go "oh Goodspeed does the exact same thing"
How is Goodspeed not wrong, but the NWT is? When they translate the verse in a similar fashion - Could it be more YOUR theological motivation driving that rather than objective scholarship?
you said proskenyo has a range, yeah it does - The full extent goes to the Father NO ONE else."If proskyneō were intended to mean mere homage for Jesus, it would contradict the shared divine worship described here." - except in 1 Chronicles, where the exact same construction occurs - yet I would venture to guess you would claim it means different - you CANNOT have it both ways, choose..
"While "worship" in older English usage could include respect or homage, the modern understanding aligns more closely with the biblical context when referring to Jesus. " - When were these Bibles translated? again you have NOT done your research
"Reducing proskyneō to mere "obeisance" in references to Jesus undermines the consistent NT witness to His divine identity." - this is made up BS of your own creation...
What's a synonym to the word "obeisance"?:https://www.google.com/search?q=obeisance&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
oh look "Worship" "homage" "Veneration" & "honor" - this literally proves you don't even do simple google searches to research any point you make.. Why would I EVER believe anything you say to me? Do you ever get tried of being wrong?
You seem to ignore Hebrews 1:6 is a reapplication - Why? because actaul digging might conflict with your belief? well yes it would. Iv done the digging for you -
Blotty
in Matt 28:17 it says (roughly) "some doubted" - How can you doubt when you worship something? that's an oxymoron
Do you fact check anything before you post? How anyone takes you seriously I will never understand.
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TTWSYF
No scholarly organization including any college or university considers the NWT as an accurate translation. Sorry, just the facts.
tywsyf