Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  joey jojo

  peacefulpete
  joey...The Gospel of John, counter to the order of writing, may in fact represent a branch of Christianity more primitive than the other Gospels. Sure, much of the narrative is derived from the Synoptics yet it also relies upon sources independent from that

  I dont know a lot about this stuff, although it is very interesting. From what Ive read, logos,as used by the Greeks speaks about an abstract idea that involved the way god created the universe. The gospel of john attaches a distinct identity to this, which is actually a radical change.

  John seems to take an idea and develop it, weaving it into the jesus story. It seems like there is more to it than simply an honest re-telling of events about jesus.
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  Duran

  aren't you free to do the same? Personally, I attend Christmas parties without being concerned about the religious aspects many still attach to it.

  Sure, you can go if you are going to be with the ones that are there. And you can be the one who celebrates it yourself having people come to you. You can do what you want.

  My point is, Dec 25 is not Jesus' birthday. No where in the Bible was it asked for his followers to memorialize his birth. The date and choice to memorialize it was complete done by people of 'the world'. It is not Scriptural and all that is associated with celebrating Christmas is dishonoring to the one it is claim that it is being done for.

  That in itself means nothing at all. For example, the place where I grew up is on the same latitude as the south of France

  LOL. I knew it meant nothing as well. He said sheep are outside year around, but what I asked was if he thought the shepherds would be sleeping/living outside overnight in the wintertime. Luke 2:8 There was no mention of it being wintertime like here. John 10:22

  Even if the low was 43F at night, I can't image sleeping/living outdoors, sheep yes, me no.

  
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  aqwsed12345

  @Duran

  The Bible does not specify the exact date of Jesus’ birth, but this absence does not make commemorating His birth unbiblical. The event itself—God becoming incarnate—is profoundly significant to Christianity (John 1:14). Celebrating it on December 25 is a tradition that focuses on this theological truth, not the specific date.

  Just because the Bible does not command the annual celebration of Jesus' birth does not mean it forbids it. The Bible also does not explicitly command wedding anniversaries, yet these are widely accepted as meaningful expressions of love. Similarly, celebrating Christmas reflects joy and gratitude for Christ’s incarnation. So while it's true that the Bible does not explicitly command celebrating Jesus' birth, it does not forbid it either. Christianity has a rich tradition of commemorating significant events in salvation history (e.g., the death and resurrection of Christ), even if not directly mandated.

  Jesus' death is indeed central to salvation (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). However, His birth (the Incarnation) is equally foundational to the Christian faith. Without His coming in the flesh (John 1:14), there would be no death or resurrection to redeem humanity. Celebrating the Incarnation acknowledges God's love in sending His Son as the light of the world (John 3:16; Luke 2:10-14).

  In Romans 14:5-6, Paul affirms the freedom to honor certain days as special to the Lord, provided the intention is to glorify God. This principle applies to Christmas, as it is an expression of faith and thanksgiving for Jesus’ birth.

  While Jesus celebrated Jewish feasts like Hanukkah (John 10:22), which is not explicitly commanded in the Torah, His participation shows that observing religious traditions is acceptable when they align with God’s purposes. Similarly, Christmas celebrates the Incarnation, a central event in God’s redemptive plan.

  Luke 2:8 does not exclude the possibility of Jesus being born in December. Shepherds often tended flocks year-round in mild climates like Bethlehem’s. Historical climate data supports that nighttime temperatures were not prohibitive for outdoor grazing during winter months in the region. The argument about shepherds not being in the fields during winter is speculative. Luke 2:8 simply states they were "keeping watch over their flock by night," which could happen during winter if the region's mild climate allowed. Moreover, John 10:22, which mentions winter, does not conflict with this; it demonstrates the diversity of weather conditions in the region.

  Commemorating Jesus' death (1 Corinthians 11:23-26) does not negate the importance of His birth. Without the Incarnation, His sacrificial death and resurrection would not have been possible. Both events are integral to Christian theology and worthy of reflection and celebration.

  While non-Christians may participate in secular aspects of Christmas, the Christian celebration focuses on Christ. The claim that celebrating Christmas dishonors Christ confuses worldly commercialization with the theological focus of the holiday. Labeling Christmas as "worldly" dismisses centuries of Christian tradition. The celebration is not about following "the world" but about honoring the Incarnation of Christ. The "worldliness" associated with modern Christmas (e.g., consumerism, Santa Claus) is not inherent to the holiday itself but reflects secular culture. Christians are free to celebrate Christmas in a way that focuses on Christ, free from these distractions.

  December 25 was chosen for theological reasons, symbolizing Christ as the "light of the world" during the darkest time of the year. This choice does not depend on pagan origins but on the transformative message of the Gospel, which brings light into darkness (John 1:5).

  The claim that Christmas is dishonoring to Jesus because it is not explicitly commanded conflates tradition with Scripture. Mark 7:8 critiques traditions that nullify God’s commandments, not traditions that glorify Him. The Christian tradition of celebrating Jesus' birth is consistent with biblical principles of gratitude, worship, and reflection on God's redemptive plan.

  So the celebration of Christmas is a meaningful tradition rooted in Christian theology. It honors the Incarnation, expresses gratitude for God’s love, and invites reflection on Christ’s mission. The absence of a specific command does not diminish its legitimacy; rather, it highlights the freedom Christians have to glorify God through various expressions of worship.
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  Anony Mous

  Interesting to see the same people use the same tires WTBTS arguments which are easily disproven by Christian apologia that are themselves 2000 years old.

  Christmas can be deduced from scripture, the Jews celebrate similar symbols at the same time. Whether it is factual is irrelevant unless you deny the scripture altogether.

  Shepherds in the field, not a problem in temperate climate where it is 50-60F at night, you know people had fire and the huts they lived in didn’t really have central heating either.
  
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  peacefulpete

  I dont know a lot about this stuff, although it is very interesting. From what Ive read, logos,as used by the Greeks speaks about an abstract idea that involved the way god created the universe. The gospel of john attaches a distinct identity to this, which is actually a radical change.

  As has been discussed recently on this forum the Jews had adopted the Logos concept as a variation of the much older 2nd Power theology. The G. John's use of the expression is actually pretty consistent with Philo's. The distinction some Christians make is that their Logos was a physical being. That ignores the Jewish tradition that the 2nd power had at times taken a physical appearance to eat or commune with humans. A second aspect rarely considered is that the Gospel narratives were originally metaphor and dramatizations in the same spirit as was popular, in both Jewish and Christian circles, to understand many OT narratives. As such it is difficult to be certain just how much conceptual light can be seen between Hellenistic Judaism and a sect of that movement that eventually became called Christianity.
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  peacefulpete

  My point is, Dec 25 is not Jesus' birthday.

  Since the stories of Jesus' birth were diverse and late additions to the narrative, the best anyone could argue is that there were multiple traditions. If we were to be objective about it, the lack of a date is consistent with the literary nature of the whole story. All considered, the date of Dec 25 is as appropriate as any, perhaps more so as the celebration of light and Jesus being described in solar/light motifs.

  No where in the Bible was it asked for his followers to memorialize his birth. The date and choice to memorialize it was complete done by people of 'the world'.

  I should say so. All people are of this 'world'.

  It is not Scriptural and all that is associated with celebrating Christmas is dishonoring to the one it is claim that it is being done for.

  There are many 'scriptures' that encourage singing, generosity, eating well and expressing love. These are often forgotten in a cultish obsession over purity.
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  moomanchu

  Why does Jehovah get angry at his children when they celebrate his son's birthday?

  I wouldn't get mad if others celebrated my son's birthday even if it was on the wrong date.

  Hell now that I think about it people celebrate their birthdays on the wrong date all the time.

  If your child's birthday is Tuesday everyone is like, "yeah let's just wait for Saturday or Sunday to have the party."

  Is Jehovah jealous of his own son getting a birthday and he doesn't or is he just very moody and tempermental?

  This is all so very confusing that Jehovah is so fickle and thin skinned.

  You celebrated my son's birthday on the wrong date!!!!!

  No paradise for you!

  Boring. LOL
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  Anony Mous

  Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

  As the days on which the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month that had been turned for them from sorrow into gladness and from mourning into a holiday; that they should make them days of feasting and gladness, days for sending gifts of food to one another and gifts to the poor.
  
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  KerryKing

  I remember JWs saying that Christmas is like throwing a birthday party for the birthday boy, everyone bringing presents for each other, but not for Jesus, and how sad and left out he would feel on his own birthday.

  The sheer amount of emotional manipulation, especially on the poor JW children who have to go through months of this hype at school, is the disgusting bit.

  All the daft arguments about whether it was 'commanded' or not, Jesus commanded people to love each other, that's it. The rest was left up to individuals themselves. That's the whole and sole point of being a Jesus follower.

  Not lording it over each other, not mastering another's faith.

  Jesus never commanded anyone to write down his teachings, or that those teachings should be compiled into a book to bash others over the head with, and control them with.
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  aqwsed12345

  Based on Bethlehem's climate, the average temperatures in December are mild because the city lies in a Mediterranean climate zone. The daytime temperatures in December currently range from 12–15 °C (54–59 °F), while nighttime temperatures often drop to 5–7 °C (41–45 °F).

  Sheep have thick wool coats that provide excellent insulation against the cold. As a result, sheep can survive even in freezing conditions, provided they have enough food and are kept in sheltered locations protected from wind and precipitation. According to the Bible, the shepherds were out in the open field with their flocks, which does not necessarily rule out the December period, particularly in milder winters. The shepherds could have made fires to keep themselves warm and to protect both themselves and the flock from the cold. Fire-making was a common practice among ancient shepherds, especially at night when the temperatures were cooler and there was a need to ward off predators.

  The fire would have provided warmth, making it feasible for the shepherds to sleep under the open sky despite the colder weather. The fire would also have offered protection against wild animals and helped the shepherds stay awake to keep watch over their flocks. Given climatic variations at that time, it is possible that winters were milder than those in modern Bethlehem, making outdoor stays for the shepherds more manageable. If grazing conditions and weather permitted, flocks could even be kept outdoors in winter, particularly if there was no alternative.

  Ancient shepherds were far more adapted to the challenges of nature than we might imagine from a modern perspective. Since woolly sheep tolerate cold relatively well, shepherds did not necessarily need to keep them in shelters at all times. Moreover, communal fire-making and proper clothing could have helped them endure colder nights under the open sky. Thus, the shepherds' fire-making habits and the sheep's ability to withstand cold make it plausible that Jesus could have been born in December.

  At the time of Jesus's birth (approximately 4 BCE to 6 CE), the Mediterranean region was experiencing the Roman Warm Period, which lasted from around 250 BCE to 400 CE. This period featured milder winters and slightly warmer average temperatures than those of the Middle Ages or the present day. It is believed that the annual average temperatures were somewhat higher than they are today. This would have resulted in milder cold during the winter months and slightly warmer conditions in summer.

  In Bethlehem, nighttime temperatures during this period were likely in the range of 5–10 °C (41–50 °F). Due to the characteristics of the Mediterranean climate, the winter months were wetter. Rain or occasional snowfall might have occurred, but sustained freezing temperatures or significant snow accumulation were highly unlikely.

  The milder climate could have supported agricultural activities and shepherding. During winter months, the absence of severe frosts could have allowed pastures to remain partially green, enabling animals to be kept outdoors more easily, especially in winters that were not particularly harsh.

  Thus, during Christ's birth, Bethlehem's climate may have been slightly milder and warmer than it is today, particularly during the winter months. Consequently, it is conceivable that shepherds were out in the fields with their flocks even in December, especially during a mild winter. However, nighttime cold and precipitation would still have posed challenges, which could have been mitigated by fire-making.