Hitler will get the same punishment from Jehovah as someone who celebrates birthdays on the wrong date. Cool.
Is Jesus the Creator?
by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Duran
I should say so. All people are of this 'world'.
Apparently, you do not understand Jesus' view of that...
[15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.]
Why does Jehovah get angry at his children when they celebrate his son's birthday?
I wouldn't get mad if others celebrated my son's birthday even if it was on the wrong date.What have I said that you disagree with...
I have said and showed Jesus died on Nisan 14 and he said to continue to observe his death until he arrives. This can be shown using the Bible therefore it is Scriptural.
Do you agree with that so far?
Now I have also said that nowhere in the Bible can you show the date of his birth or that he asks for it to be observed year after year. (Are you able to show either from the Bible?) Therefore, it is not Scriptural.
Do you agree with that?
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Next part:
You can say, 'so what if the date of his birth is not in the Bible nor did he ask his birth to memorialize', 'I would like to do it and see nothing wrong with it.'
I ask if that is the case, then since you don't know the real date and you just have to pick a day, then why not pick any date you choose, and do it with yourself, family, friends, the way you would for your own son, self, family, friends?
Why do you have to do it on December 25th with the rest of 'the world'?
Who chose Dec 25th and why if it is not in the Bible?
What does Santa Claus, north pole, elves, flying reindeer, etc. have to do with Jesus' birth?
What does a tree being put in a home and putting presents under it have to do with Jesus' birth?
And speaking of the tree, you know it is grown in fields just to farm them, just to be cut down and sold, so that you can then bring a dead tree in your home, to put your presents under, then throw the tree out.
Who came up with that tradition of the tree and presents under it in celebrating Jesus' birth? Is it in the Bible?
Do you celebrate Halloween? If not, why?
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moomanchu
The horse is dead.
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Sea Breeze
Duran,
You seem to adpopt a position where if something is not given specific permission in scripture, it might be called 'wrong" by people like youself.
Most other people simply assume freedom where there is no specific prohibition in scripture.
After all, scripture says that "it is for freedom Christ has set you free" - Gal. 5: 1
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Anony Mous
@aqswed: I live up north, we go winter camping with scouts unless it is under 0F, a lot colder than what those shepherds did, in basic tents and outside all day regardless of weather. Sure, we have blankets and cots, but people back then were pretty inventive too, the Roman Empire reached all the way up to Finland with soldiers being stationed in the Netherlands.
@Duran: it is in the Bible, Roman Catholic Bibles at least:
1 Maccabees 4:36–39Describes the rededication of the temple and the decree to celebrate annually on the 25th of Kislev which in 2024 also falls on December 25th.It is traditionally celebrated with a tree/bush in the home and lights and feasting. Does the symbolism re-appear elsewhere in other religions, off course, because some things always evolve to the same conclusion.Christians were known to celebrate the day of the nativity as there is contemporary evidence as early as 200AD in North Africa. Origen also wrote about the celebration of the manger of Jesus in 215AD, as did Justin Martyr (100-165AD). So already in the first and second century Christianity do we see the nativity of Jesus being mentioned and venerated/celebrated, so the theory of pagan alignment much later in the Catholic Church is an outdated anti-historic idea which was much more recently introduced as a ‘fact’, however the Coptic and various other churches that were founded by other apostles as early as 42AD, ALSO celebrate Christmas (although in different forms liturgically). -
aqwsed12345
@Duran
In John 17:16, Jesus says, “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it” (NIV). The NWT translates this as “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” The phrase "no part of the world" is an interpretive addition. The Greek text (ouk ek tou kosmou) translates more naturally as "not of the world." This subtle mistranslation introduces an unnecessary absolutism, implying complete detachment from societal practices, which is not the intended meaning of Jesus’ prayer. Jesus is referring to spiritual distinctiveness, not physical separation or rejection of cultural practices. Christians remain in the world but are called to live according to God’s values, not worldly sinful behaviors (John 17:15). The Watchtower Society uses this phrase to justify rejecting neutral societal customs (like birthdays or Christmas), promoting a divisive interpretation that equates cultural participation with spiritual corruption.
It is true that the Bible specifies Nisan 14 as the date of Jesus’ death and commands its commemoration (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). However while Jesus did not command celebrating His birth, He did not forbid it either. Christians are free to honor significant events in salvation history, such as the Incarnation, as long as it aligns with scriptural principles (Romans 14:5-6). Without the Incarnation (John 1:14), there would be no death or resurrection. Celebrating Jesus’ birth reflects the joy and fulfillment of God’s promise (Luke 2:10-14), complementing the commemoration of His death.
According to the Watchtower Society, only the celebrations explicitly prescribed in the Bible can be observed, but the Bible does not establish such a principle. Besides the annual feasts prescribed in the Law, the Jews had both occasional and regular celebrations (e.g., weddings, Hanukkah). Jesus Himself actively participated in the wedding at Cana (John 2:1-11) and attended the Hanukkah (Feast of Dedication) celebrations, teaching in the Temple in the middle of the festival (John 10:22-23). He never opposed celebrations not mandated by Mosaic Law. The New Testament explicitly teaches that there is no religious significance to regarding one day as better than another. Thus, no one should be compelled to observe any particular day, nor should others be judged for celebrating something (Romans 14:5-12, Colossians 2:16-17).
The claim that December 25 is a "worldly" celebration misunderstands history. December 25 was chosen not to “align” with paganism but to emphasize Jesus as the "Light of the World" (John 8:12), coinciding with the winter solstice when daylight begins to increase. The earliest records of Christmas predate Emperor Aurelian’s Sol Invictus festival (AD 274), disproving the claim that Christians copied it. Romans 14:5-6 allows believers to esteem certain days as special for honoring God. Celebrating Christmas on December 25 does not inherently align Christians with "the world," as the focus remains on Christ’s birth.
The inclusion of Christmas trees, Santa Claus, or gifts is cultural and not mandated by Scripture. These customs, while not rooted in the Bible, can be neutral tools for expressing joy and generosity, provided they do not distract from the holiday’s true meaning. Giving gifts echoes the generosity of the Magi (Matthew 2:11) and reflects the ultimate gift of Jesus to humanity (John 3:16). Symbols like the tree or lights remind Christians of Christ, who brings eternal life (John 1:4) and light into the world. Their origins in pre-Christian customs are irrelevant if their modern meaning is Christ-centered.
Jehovah’s Witnesses inconsistently apply the “pagan origin” argument. The Watchtower has admitted that many customs, such as wedding rings or timekeeping, originated in pagan contexts but are now secular and acceptable (e.g., w98 10/15 pp. 30-31). By their own logic, Christmas traditions—now widely associated with Christ—should not be dismissed solely because of their ancient origins.
In conclusion, the celebration of Christmas is not about adhering to a specific date or pagan customs but about honoring Christ’s Incarnation, a cornerstone of Christian faith. The mistranslation of John 17:16 in the NWT serves to isolate Jehovah’s Witnesses unnecessarily from cultural expressions that can glorify God when done with the right intent.
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peacefulpete
P.Pete....I should say so. All people are of this 'world'.
Duran....Apparently, you do not understand Jesus' view of that..
Duran....I do understand how elitist sects have historically self-identified as exclusively chosen from, not only the world of humans, but from among the world of Christians. My perspective has obviously changed since leaving such a sect. I was hoping to help you do the same and rejoin the human race.
I'll remind you that earlier in this discussion you dismissed as irrelevant the fact that the Last Supper description incorporated pagan Greek festival traditions because Christians had given the Passover and it's symbols a new meaning. Surely this mirrors how many Christians view the adaptation of Christmas traditions. If the Gospel writers had no issue with adapting and appropriating Greek festival elements, why do you?
Your answer was provided when you graciously allowed me to pick a day to celebrate the birth of Jesus, as long as it wasn't the same day as other Christians (world) had chosen. The root of your objection to celebrating the 25th is your contempt for other Christian faiths.
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Duran
You seem to adpopt a position where if something is not given specific permission in scripture, it might be called 'wrong" by people like youself.
The root of your objection to celebrating the 25th is your contempt for other Christian faiths.
LOL! I know y'all were JWs at some point but do you every stop being the fools that it takes to be a JW?
Such foolish replies back and yet evasion when it comes to my questions.
I have not spoken about right or wrong or have I used the word pagan, nor have I said I object to December 25th if that is the date you want to choose. I asked that if the birth date is not known so one has to be picked, why can't you pick any date you want and privately celebrate? Why do you have to do it on Dec 25th? Those are questions!
Do you understand and agree if the date of Jesus' birth is not in the Bible, and he did not ask/command any to observe his birth, then the decision to celebrate it and the date chosen to do so does not come from him or the Bible, which means it comes from some other source. Period!
If the is the case, then that means that everyone who celebrates it are following the decision that was started/made by the source that started it. It has nothing to do as coming from Jesus.
Without getting into right or wrong, if the date of his birth is not in the Bible and there is nothing about Joseph and Mary nor his disciples celebrating his birth yearly, and Jesus never said to do so, then that means that the celebrating of it and the date to do it on came AFTER the Bible was written and by a source other than Jesus and the writers of the Bible.
So, do you who celebrate it know who chose to do so and who chose to do it on Dec 25th?
And is anyone willing to answer this:
Do you celebrate Halloween? If not, why?
And as far as:
1 Maccabees 4:36–39
Describes the rededication of the temple and the decree to celebrate annually on the 25th of Kislev which in 2024 also falls on December 25th.Do you realize that Kislev 25 like Nisan 14 does not fall in the same month and day each year.Kislev can be Nov/Dec and Nisan can be Mar/Apr, so celebrating something on either of those dates would need to change to adapt to the appropriate month and day to align with those dates, you can't pick/choose the month and day you want.If Christmas is connected to Kislev 25 then Christmas can't be on Dec 25th every year.Kislev 25 2024/Dec 26Kislev 25 2023/Dec 8Kislev 25 2022/Dec 19Kislev 25 2021/Nov 29And who decided that regardless of the fact that Jesus died on Nisan 14 a day that would fluctuate from year to year between March and April and whatever day of the week, who said that it will always be on a Friday (so-called 'Good Friday') regardless of if Nisan 14 aligns with that day or not?Nisan 14 2023/Wed April 5Nisan 14 2022/Fri April 14Nisan 14 2021/Sat March 27Nisan 14 2020/Wed April 8 -
Sea Breeze
I know y'all were JWs at some point but do you every stop being the fools that it takes to be a JW?
@ Duran: So now people are fools if they don't observe your rules? And they are your rules, just like the Pharissaical rules were from the Pharisees, and not from God.
Like I said: Most people simply assume freedom where there is no specific prohibition in scripture. That is just common sense. "it is for freedom Christ has set you free" - Gal. 5: 1
The scriptures are full of warnings about falling victum to rule-oriented thinking such as yours.
“Be careful of the yeast of the Pharisees. I mean that they are hypocrites". - Jesus (Luke 12)
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception [pseudo-intellectual babble], according to the tradition [and musings] of mere men, following the elementary principles of this world, rather than following [the truth—the teachings of] Christ. - Col. 2: 8 AMP
But I fear that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve through his trickery, so your minds might be led astray from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Cor. 11: 3-4
You'll find little support for rule-shaming on this board. Both Christians here and secularists have had a belly full of the "yeast of the Pharisees" and their "pseudo-intellectual babble".