Kenneson,
Ronald McDonald and Mickey Mouse will survive us all!
ISP
Jesus was gay - says academic
by ISP 172 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Kenneson
Isp,
No doubt Ronald McDonald and Mickey Mouse will outlive us. But we do not know if they will still be remembered in 2,000 years as has Jesus. However, Price, Kirby, you and I, no.
It's interesting to me that if Jesus was merely fictious then Paul was not his inventor. If he knew only the mystical Christ, where did he find out that Jesus suffered, was crucified on the cross, died, rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father? Why does he acknowledge that he persecuted people who believed before he did? How did he know there were other apostles? Where did he learn about the Lord's Supper? Etc. These are all items he mentions in his writings. How can we be positive that his silence on certain issues mean he was ignorant of them?
As to why he doesn't mention Jesus parables, miracles, etc., perhaps there was no need to. People still recalled them, but as they got further away from the Jesus' event, they began recording what he had said and done so it would not be forgotten.
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hooberus
peacefulpter said: ISP... hooberus and I had this ery discussion a while back. The Luke 22 verse is a late addition to the text as is evidenced by the early Latin (2-4th cent) and some greek manuscript ommitions. He knows this and is not willing to even consider the likelyhood of the gospels having been worked after Pauline Christianity became dominant. I enjoyed your postings though.
"All the early MSS except D testify to the presence of Luke 22:19b-20 in the account of the Last Supper" Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, 1990 edition p.99
Luke 22:19-20 is found in P75, Aleph, A, B, C, L,T,W
P75 is dated c.200 , thus Luke 22:19,20 is found in the oldest manuscript of this section of Luke as well as all other early manuscripts except D which is much later than P75. Manuscript P75 (c. 200) is 250 years older than Benzae (c.450). Also Aleph, A, B are older too, though not by nearly as much as P75.
The greek manuscript situation in Luke 22:19,20 is similar to the situation with Luke 24:3; Luke 24:12; Luke 24:36; Luke 24:40; and Luke 24:52 in which manuscript D with its ommissions stands against all other early MSS. All the omissions in D in these verses are found in older MSS such as P75, Aleph, A, and B. Benzae is however supported in these omissions by a "few Old Latin MSS" (Luke 24:3; 24:36) as well as "some early versions" (Luke 24:12; Luke 24:40; 24:52). I plan on looking up the early latin information, but based on Greek manuscript evidence Luke 22:19,20 is original.
Even if one rejects Luke 22:19b-20 there is still abundant evidence that Paul believed and taught that Jesus Christ was a literal historical person.
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hooberus
Earlier ISP quoted Robert Price. I will deal with some of his statements.
3) The New Testament epistles can be read quite naturally as presupposing a period in which Christians did not yet believe their savior god had been a figure living on earth in the recent historical past.
This is a ridiculous statement, and shows the extent to which Mr. Price is willing to twist the scriptures. I have on previous posts on this thread shown from the epistles of Paul, Peter, and John, that they all believed that Jesus was a historical person who had lived recently on the earth. Here for example are statements from 1 Peter showing that Peter was a disciple and witness of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter Chapter 5 1: The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1 Peter Chapter 1 1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,In addition to the epistles there are the gospels, as well as the book of Acts etc, which clearly show that Jesus Christ was considered to be a historical person by those who wrote the epistles.
Pail, for instance, never even mentions Jesus performing healings and even as a teacher.
The fact that Paul did not mention every aspect of Jesus' life does not prove that he did not believe in the historicity of Jesus Christ. See my earlier posts on this thread for conclusive evidence that Paul believed in the recent historicity of Jesus Christ.
Twice he cites what he calls "words of the Lord," but even conservative New Testament scholars admit he may as easily mean prophetic revelations from the heavenly Christ.
The words that he received from Jesus were those repeated to him by Jesus Christ. Words which Jesus clearly spoke on the earth.
Paul attributes the death of Jesus not to Roman or Jewish governments, but rather to the designs of evil "archon," angels who rule this fallen world.
1 think here that he is referring to 1 Corinthians Chapter 2
"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Corinthians Chapter 2:8
Paul is referring to the fact that the Jews were incited to crucify Jesus Christ by demonic forces. This in no way contradicts Pauls other statements that Jesus Christ was crucified by Pilate.
Romans and 1 Peter both warn Christians to watch their step, reminding them that the Roman authorities never punish the righteous, but only the wicked. How they have said this if they knew of the Pontius Pilate story?
The situation of Romans chapter 13 being taken out of context to "disprove" the crucifixion accounts has been delt with on this thread by other posters. I have shown from multiple sources here the evidence for the historicity of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate.
The two exceptions, 1 Thessalonians and 2 Timothy, epistles that do blame Pilate or Jews for the death of Jesus, only serve to prove the rule. Both can easily be shown on other grounds to be non-Pauline and later than the gospels.
I have already posted a link defending I Timothy as being Pauline.
As to 1 Thessalonians:
"Of the 14 letters in the New Testament traditionally ascribed to Paul, 7 are firmly attributed to him by even the most skeptical scholars: Romans, 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, and Philemon." The Bible Through the Ages 1996 p. 170; Bruce Metzger overall consultant
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hooberus
Robert price said: 1) In broad outline and in detail, the life of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels corresponds to the worldwide Mythic Hero Archetype in which a divine hero's birth is supernaturally predicted and conceived, the infant hero escapes attempts to kill him, demonstrates his precocious wisdom already as a child, receives a divine commission, defeats demons, wins acclaim, is hailed as king, then betrayed, losing popular favor, executed, often on a hilltop, and is vindicated and taken up to heaven.
These features are found world wide in heroic myths and epics. The more closely a supposed biography, say that of Hercules, Apollonius of Tyana, Padma Sambhava, of Gautama Buddha, corresponds to this plot formula, the more likely the historian is to conclude that a historical figure has been transfigured by myth.
Apparently Price is attempting to say that the biblical writers received inspiration from "the worldwide Mythic Hero Archetype" He lists several examples. here is some important information on one of these "heroes" I'll try to check on the rest time allowing.
http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_APT.html
The stories of Apollonius were written some 150 years after the crucifixion of Jesus! Whether through neglect, carelessness, or outright deception, in omitting this fact critics allow the reader to assume that the Gospels are somehow copied from or influenced by the Apollonius stories. If anything, the evidence would point to just the opposite: Philostratus copied what was in the gospels; although it is not necessary to think that he did. (As Mead puts it [Mead.ApT, 35]: "...as a plagarist of the Gospel story Philostratus is a conspicuous failure.") The small similarity in genre between the Gospels and the story of Apollonius is fascinating, but the incredible DIFFERENCES between the material are far more important - and as we have noted, this leads some scholars to take Apollonius' story out of the genre of bioi entirely! The reader should be aware that:
- The Life of Apollonius of Tyana was written no earlier than AD 217. This is over 100 years after Apollonius lived - twice as long as the time between the life of Jesus and the latest proposed date for the first Gospel writing (75 AD) and four times longer than the earliest proposed time (50 AD). The author, Philostratus, was born around 172 AD. This means that whereas there were still people alive when the Gospels were written who could confirm or deny their historicity, in the case of Apollonius, everyone who knew him was long dead and buried. This makes a substantial difference when comparing the texts.
And in the case of Jesus Christ, where virtually every detail of the story fits the mythic hero archetype, with nothing left over, no "secular," biographical data, so to speak, it becomes arbitrary to assert that there must have been a historical figure lying back of the myth. There may have been, but it can no longer be considered particularly probable, and that's all the historian can deal with: probabilities.
There is secular historical data for the existence of Jesus Christ. Earlier I posted 2 non-christain historian quotes as well as an early apologist referencing secular records on the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pilate. In addition to these is the well accepted James passage in Josephus which gives historical data on James the brother of Jesus Christ (as well as a reference for the historicity of Jesus Christ.)
Robert Price said: 2) Specifically, the passion stories of the gospels strike me as altogether too close to contemporary myths of dying and rising savior gods including Osiris, Tammuz, Baal, Attis, Adonis, Hercules, and Asclepius. Like Jesus, these figures were believed to have once lived a life upon the earth, been killed, and risen shortly thereafter. Their deaths and resurrections were in most cases ritually celebrated each spring to herald the return of the life to vegetation. In many myths, the savior's body is anointed for burial, searched out by holy women and then reappear alive a few days later.
The Encyclopedia of Religion 1987 Volume 4 p.521-526
"The category of dying and rising gods, once a major topic of scholarly investigation, must now be understood to have been largely a misnomer based on imaginative reconstructions and exceedingly late or highly ambiguous texts."
"As the above examples make plain, the category of dying and rising deities is exceedingly dubious. It has been based largely on Christian interest and tenuous evidence. As such, the category is of more interest to the history of scholarship than to the history of religions."
The above qouotes are the first and the last paragraphs of the arcticle. The arcticle (by a secular religious historian J. Z. Smith) discusses most of the deities listed by Price, and shows the dubious evidence.
Lets look at an example of one of the parallel deities listed by Price: Adonis (The quote below is from JP Holding, he quotes J. Z. Smith who is the authour of the above encyclopedia arcticle.)
"Adonis is recknoned an ancient deity, but the only account of his death comes from a text dated to the second century -- another case of "too late to influence the story of Jesus" -- in which it is described how Addy's death at the hands of a boar was mourned by worshippers in Byblos. After mourning, worshippers the next day "proclaim that he lives and send him into the air." Resurrection? It sounds much more like Roman apotheosis as stated; in any event no method of getting alive again is described. Other rituals known for Adonis seem to connect him to vegetation, and accentuate his death, with "no hint of rebirth." J. Z. Smith, the scholar of the history of religions, notes that "classical accounts of Adonis neither mention nor describe his rising from death and that only accounts fashioned by Christian writers introduces the theme of Adonis's resurrection." Too little, too late."
The story of Adonis (who was killed by a boar according to a post christian text) is used by Price to question the passion accounts in the Bible . . . weak argument.
The following link discusses the other candidates listed by price.
http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04.html
3) Similarly, the details of the crucifixion, burial and resurrection accounts are astonishingly similar to the events of several surviving popular novels from the same period in which two lovers are separated when one seems to have died and is unwittingly entombed alive. Grave robbers discover her reviving and kidnap her. Her lover finds the tomb empty, graveclothes still in place, and first concludes she has been raised up from death and taken to heaven. Then, realizing what must have happened, he goes in search of her. During his adventures, he is sooner or later condemned to the cross or actually crucified, but manages to escape. When at length the couple is reunited, neither, having long imagined the other dead, can quite believe the lover is alive and not a ghost come to say farewell.
What aspect of these legends comes from pre-christain sources? Where is the documentation?
There have been two responses to such evidence by apologists. First, they have contended that all these myths are plagiarized from the gospels by pagan imitators, pointing out that some of the evidence is post-Christian 2E But much is in fact preChristian.
Which part of the stories are pre-Christian? And where is the documentation?
And it is significant that the early Christian apologists argued that these parallels to the gospels were counterfeits in advance, by Satan, who knew the real thing would be coming along later and wanted to throw people off the track. This is like the desperate Nineteenth-Century attempts of fundamentalists to claim that Satan had created fake dinosaur bones to tempt the faithful not to believe in Genesis! At any rate, and this is my point, no one would have argued this way had the pagan myths of dead and resurrected gods been more recent than the Christian.
I believe that price is referring to Justin Martyr who discussed some pagan similarities. However Justin after discussing the pagan dieties stated that none of them were crucified. This shows that the idea of other crucifed godmen was unknown to even to those who had a knowledge of paganism such as Justin.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967
Chapter LV.-Symbols of the Cross.
"But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation."
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hooberus
Now a question for the people here who believe that Jesus Christ did not exist. Why do even secular sources like the encyclopedia Britanica say that Jesus Christ was a historical person, who was crucified under Pilate????
Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762
"There were various methods of performing the execution. Usually, the condemned man, after being whipped, or "scourged," dragged the crossbeam of his cross to the place of punishment, where the upright shaft was already fixed in the ground. Stripped of his clothing either then or earlier at his scourging, he was bound fast with outstrectched arms to the crossbeam or nailed firmly to it through the wrists. The crossbeam was then raised high against the upright shaft and made fast to it about 9 to 12 feet (approximately 3 metres) from the ground. Next, the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft. A ledge inserted about halfway up the upright shaft gave some support to the body; evidence for a similar ledge for the feet is rare and late. Over the criminal's head was placed a notice stating his name and his crime. Death, apparently caused bu exhaustion or by heart failure, could be hastened by shattering the legs (crurifragium) with an iron club, so that shock and asphyxiation soon nded his life."
The same arcticle later says:
"in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion."
Also what about the other aposles besides Paul who said that Jesus Christ was a historical person who was crucified and that they were witnesses? Persons such as the Apostle Peter from whom Mark received his gospel. Also see 1 Peter.
Mark Chapter 15
1: And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
2: And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
3: And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
4: And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
5: But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.
6: Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
7: And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
8: And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.
9: But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
10: For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
11: But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
12: And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
13: And they cried out again, Crucify him.
14: Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.
15: And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
16: And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band.
17: And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18: And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19: And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20: And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
21: And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
22: And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23: And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24: And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25: And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26: And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27: And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28: And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29: And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30: Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31: Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32: Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33: And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34: And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35: And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36: And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37: And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38: And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
39: And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
40: There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41: (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
42: And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
43: Joseph of Arimathaea, and honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.
44: And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
45: And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.
46: And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
47: And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid. -
rem
LOL, there is some funny stuff on this thread. The most hilarious, though, are people who believe in astrology getting upset because the 'scholar' didn't do it right. LMAO As if there is a "right" way to do something that doesn't work in the first place!
And then there is Hooberus.
rem
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avishai
The most hilarious, though, are people who believe in astrology getting upset because the 'scholar' didn't do it right. LMAO As if there is a "right" way to do something that doesn't work in the first place!
Just cuz I pointed out his faulty reasoning is not an admission of belief one way or the other, rem.
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funkyderek
The most hilarious, though, are people who believe in astrology getting upset because the 'scholar' didn't do it right
I don't know. I think Hooberus's appeal to the Encyclopaedia Britannica as proof that Jesus existed might just be funnier.
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ISP
But Christ--if He has indeed been born, and exists anywhere--is unknown, and does not even know Himself, and has no power until Elias come to anoint Him, and make Him manifest to all.
Quote from Justin Martyr.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
ISP