Jesus was gay - says academic

by ISP 172 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  ashitaka

  PP-

  I'll be using that quote.
• 

  hooberus

  The following site gives an overview of the evidence for the Historicity of Jesus from extra-biblical sources. I have been able to confirm from other sources (including hard volumes) some of the information on the site, and it appears to be a well documented site which appeals to extant evidence rather than to speculation like the jesusneverexisted.com site does. The site has several pages which inorder to view a person might need to type the page number in after the "HistJesus" section of the address.
  

  http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.htm

  Also the New Testament books themselves provide evidence that Jesus was a historical person since they were written by different authors and were written during the first century as witnessed by historical persons such as:

  Clement of Rome (A.D. 95) who quoted from: Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, 1 Corinthians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44

  Ignatius (A.D. 70-110) who quoted from: Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Collossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, James, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44 Jesus and Pilate Paul believed that Jesus was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts chapter 13 (Paul's sermon recorded by Church historian Luke). 28: And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
  29: And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
  30: But God raised him from the dead:
  31: And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 1 Timothy chapter 6 13: I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; Peter belived that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts Chapter 3 13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
  14: But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
  15: And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts Chapter 4 27: For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
  28: For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. The church historian Luke believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.

  Luke Chapter 3 1: Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

  Luke Chapeter 23 23: And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.
  24: And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. Luke chapter 23

  Jewish historian Josephus recorded that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person (some dispute this reference, though the below part is commonly accepted).

  http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus3.htm

  "When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him,"

  Roman Historian Tacitus (Ad 115) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical Person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.

  http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus4.htm

  Tacitus was a Roman historian writing early in the 2nd century A.D. unfortunately much of his work is lost, including that covering the years of Jesus life and death. [Meie.MarJ, 89] From Annals 15.44. he tells us that Nero scapegoated the Chrsitians to remove suspiscion form himself for starting the fire of Roman in A.D. 64.
  

  "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."

  
  
  [Note: not only does he know of Jesus as an histoircal figure, but knows enough detials to include the obscure Pilate and the time of his office.]
• 

  hooberus

  Christainity existed before the apostle Paul, so he did not invent it. John was an apostle of Jesus Christ (not Paul) and a witness of Jesus Christ 1 John Chapter 1 1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
  2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) Polycarp was a pupil of the Apostle John,

  "I remember well the place in which the holy Polycarp sat and spoke. I remember the discourses he delivered to the people, and how he described his relations with John, the apostle, and others who had been with the Lord; how he recited the sayings of Christ and the miracles he wrought; how he received his teachings from eyewitnesses who had seen the Word of Life, agreeing in every way with the Scriptures." Iranaeus Pupil of Polycarp quoted in Halley's Bible Handbook p. 764

  Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ (not Paul) and a witness to the sufferings of Christ 1 Peter Chapter 1
  1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

  1 Peter Chapter 5 1: The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Peter chapter 1 1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 16: For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

  There were other apostles before Paul.

  Galatians Chapter 1

  13: For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
  14: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
  15: But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
  16: To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
  17: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
  18: Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
  19: But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
  20: Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
  21: Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
  22: And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
  23: But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
  24: And they glorified God in me.

  The church historian Luke also records in Acts that Christianity came before Paul. (see chapter 9)
• 

  hooberus

  The Jesus Myth theories do the following: 1. Deny that a real historical Jesus existed (a claim proven false by the references that I have given) 2. Claim that Christianity was the invention of the Apostle Paul (a claim proven false by the church historian Luke who gives the church chronology in the book of Acts which shows that Christianity existed before Pauls conversion) 3. Propose varuious Legends that Paul borrowed from to create Christianity such as the legend of Dionysus. It seems problematic to compare for example the death of Dionysus by being "torn apart by the Titans, boiled and eaten, with only his heart remaining", to the death and resurrection of Christ. Also while Hellenism clearly influenced the culture of the Jews, the Jewish religion remained much more resistant. This can be especially seen in the attempted forced worship of dionysus (see 2 Maccabees 6:7) thrust upon the Jews during Hellenistic times which led to the Maccabean revolt ! Pious Jews with separatist beliefs similar to the Pharasees were the ones who supported this revolt against the attempted worship of this false god. Therefore it is ludicrous to claim that Paul (a Pharasee) would incorporate elements of the myth of "dionysus" into the Jewish messianic hope.
• 

  logansrun

  Peaceful Pete: Interesting points. Again, I don't know for certain that Jesus existed, although I still feel there probably was a historical core to the Jesus stories.

  As for the Lazerus account and why Paul didn't quote from it in Corinthians: Simple -- that particular episode is purely fictional, probably confused with Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazerus.

  Quite honestly, I'm pretty content with leaving the matter where it is. I don't believe that Jebus saves or anything, so I'd rather just spend my time talking about philosophy and sex .

  Hooberus...just go away, will ya?

  Bradley
• 

  Mr. Kim

  Now was that a nice thing to say?

  I guess, as long as YOU feel better about yourself.
• 

  hooberus

  Further evidence for the historicity of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ by the Romans is the fact that his crucifixion almost exactly followed the Roman manner of crucifixion

  Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762

  "There were various methods of performing the execution. Usually, the condemned man, after being whipped, or "scourged," dragged the crossbeam of his cross to the place of punishment, where the upright shaft was already fixed in the ground. Stripped of his clothing either then or earlier at his scourging, he was bound fast with outstrectched arms to the crossbeam or nailed firmly to it through the wrists. The crossbeam was then raised high against the upright shaft and made fast to it about 9 to 12 feet (approximately 3 metres) from the ground. Next, the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft. A ledge inserted about halfway up the upright shaft gave some support to the body; evidence for a similar ledge for the feet is rare and late. Over the criminal's head was placed a notice stating his name and his crime. Death, apparently caused bu exhaustion or by heart failure, could be hastened by shattering the legs (crurifragium) with an iron club, so that shock and asphyxiation soon nded his life."

  The same arcticle later says:

  "in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion."
• 

  peacefulpete

  logan ..I also suspect that there was an outstanding zealot whose aborted mission to cleanse Judaism was the catalyst for a movement in Jerusalem who clung to his claims of liberation. But the best I can offer for evidence is the story in the NT about his cleansing of the temple. This was attempted by some zealots of the time but were routed by the hundreds of Roman and Jewish guards stationed there at all times. This might be suggestive of a historical core or it might be an example of actual history wrongly ascribed to the charactor of Jesus. I think we will be arguing this matter until more evidence comes to light. Earl Doherty's book has received good reviews for his thesis that there was in fact no HS (historical Jesus). Of course Hooberus may post links to more born again sites that claim to refute his work.
• 

  Kenneson

  Isp writes: "Paul was converted direct from the Christ. (He evidently wasn't told of all the things JC did and said per the gospels by JC himself).

  According to the chart you provided, most of Paul's writings are dated between 50 and 60. The earliest Gospel is Mark and is dated between 65 and 80. Would you really expect him to rely on the Gospels? All the writings of Paul make clear the decisive importance of the Damascus experience not only in his conversion, but also in determining the personal qualities of his faith and his message: its focus on Jesus as the glorified Lord who has risen from the dead; Paul's own commission to preach Christ to the Gentiles; the concept of election; the total salvation which Jesus brings; the importance of the resurrection. Also, a lot of his theology revolves around the controversy involving Judaism. Paul was not trying to write a life of Christ. That's what the Gospels are attempting to do.
• 

  little witch

  As one of my beloved fellow posters would say,

  ''BALDERDASH''

  ((((((((((((((((((FRANCOIS)))))))))))))))))

  OR AS WE SAY IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS, FRANZ-WAH!