How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat 164 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    "experts without any prior faith commitment" - ROTFL, LMAO, come on, you can't be serious. Mainstream Christianity has many enemies, including liberal theologists, atheists, and exotic heresies. Don't they have "prior faith commitment"? This must be a joke, or you are very very naive. The assertion you're making—that an "objective" reading of the biblical texts naturally leads to conclusions similar to those of JWs—needs a closer examination. The claim that scholars who argue against the Trinity are more objective because they lack a "faith commitment" oversimplifies the complexity of biblical scholarship and the variety of perspectives that exist within it. Here's why this argument doesn't hold up:

    Your argument implies that scholars who do not hold a prior commitment to Christian dogma (e.g., the Trinity) are more "objective" or "neutral" in their examination of the biblical texts. This dichotomy between "objective" and "faith-based" scholars is, however, a false one. All scholars bring certain assumptions, biases, and perspectives to their work, whether they are religious or not. Simply because a scholar does not adhere to Christian orthodoxy does not make their reading of the text inherently more objective.

    Scholars who reject the Trinity are just as likely to be influenced by their own worldviews, presuppositions, or theological commitments—be they skeptical, secular, or aligned with other religious beliefs. The interpretation of ancient texts is a highly complex process that involves not only linguistic and historical knowledge but also philosophical and theological frameworks. There is no purely "neutral" ground from which to analyze these texts.

    For example, scholars like Jason BeDuhn or David Bentley Hart may come to different conclusions about certain passages due to their personal intellectual commitments, be they to a low Christology, philosophical pluralism, or other influences. This does not make them more or less objective than Trinitarian scholars, but simply shows that scholarship is a diverse field with various viewpoints.

    You suggest that a so-called "objective" reading contradicts the Trinity, but that assumes that the only valid method of interpreting Scripture is a literalist or atomistic approach. In reality, early Christian thinkers and church fathers developed their understanding of doctrines like the Trinity not just by reading isolated biblical texts but by engaging deeply with the theological implications of the entire biblical narrative. They also drew on centuries of Jewish and early Christian thought, Greek philosophical categories, and the lived experience of the Christian community.

    For example, the development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a response to questions about how Jesus could be fully God and fully man while maintaining the oneness of God—a central theme throughout the Bible. The church fathers weren't simply inventing new ideas but were wrestling with how to best articulate the full witness of Scripture.

    To assert that scholars who don't see the Trinity in the Bible are "more objective" overlooks the historical reality that many of these scholars often read the texts outside of their historical and theological contexts. They may favor more modern philosophical or methodological frameworks that differ from the ones used by early Christians. The fact that some modern scholars reach conclusions similar to JWs reflects their interpretive preferences, not an "objective" superiority.

    Let's consider John 1 and Philippians 2, two key texts you mentioned. Scholars throughout history have approached these passages with great care, and Trinitarian interpretations have long recognized the complexity of these texts. The prologue to John's Gospel famously describes the Logos (the Word) as being with the God and being God. The church fathers saw this as a clear expression of the divine nature of Christ, existing eternally with the Father, which directly challenges any subordinationist or Arian interpretation. The phrase "the Word was God" (John 1:1) has been extensively debated, and the overwhelming scholarly consensus—even among those without Trinitarian commitments—acknowledges that the Greek grammar supports the translation "the Word was God," rather than "a god."

    Similarly, Philippians 2 describes Christ's pre-existence and his decision to take on human nature while not grasping at equality with God. The passage speaks of Christ's humility in becoming incarnate, but it also affirms his exaltation by God and recognition as Lord, to whom every knee shall bow (Philippians 2:9-11). This text, far from undermining the Trinity, affirms both Christ's divine nature and his distinct personhood within the Godhead.

    Finally, it's important to clarify that the presence of church dogma does not invalidate scholarly work. The creeds and doctrines of the church developed over time as theologians, pastors, and church leaders sought to faithfully interpret Scripture in light of challenges, heresies, and differing opinions. To dismiss the Trinity as mere dogma imposed by later councils ignores the fact that early Christians—long before Nicaea—were already grappling with the divine identity of Jesus Christ. The councils did not "invent" the Trinity but rather provided language to articulate the faith that had been confessed since the time of the apostles.

    In contrast, JW theology, which emerged in the 19th century, represents a significant departure from historic Christian orthodoxy. Its rejection of the Trinity and re-interpretation of key biblical texts has been roundly critiqued by scholars from a variety of theological backgrounds, not simply because they adhere to "dogma," but because the Jehovah's Witnesses' readings often disregard the full context of the biblical narrative and the early Christian understanding of these doctrines.

    In summary, the claim that "objective" scholarship “naturally” leads to anti-Trinitarian conclusions is unfounded. Scholarship is diverse, and different conclusions often reflect different interpretive frameworks, not necessarily greater objectivity. The doctrine of the Trinity is rooted in a careful, holistic reading of Scripture, developed in response to the full biblical witness and the experience of the early Christian community. Far from being imposed dogma, it reflects the church's effort to faithfully articulate the mystery of God's revelation in Christ.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The scholars who offer interpretations that support JW readings are not themselves JWs, they have a variety of backgrounds and views, including liberal Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others. Whereas scholars who read the Trinity into the Bible are themselves invariably Trinitarian believers.

    There was an interesting exchange the Expository Times where the Trinitarian scholar Gerald O’Collins complained that Paul Holloway had not paid sufficient attention to Christian tradition and dogma when he wrote his commentary on Philippians which concludes that Paul believed Jesus is an angel. Holloway’s response to O’Collins is summarised in the abstract as follows:

    Gerald O’Collins’s insistence that scholars read Paul’s encomium to Christ in Phil 2:6-11 as anticipating later Christian orthodoxy confuses theological apologetics for historical interpretation. His claim that Paul anticipates Nicene Christology is anachronistic, tendentious, and methodologically confused. Phil 2:6-11 expresses a Jewish angel Christology, not a teleological foreshadowing of Nicene orthodoxy. A close reading of O’Collins’s essay is instructive at a number of levels.

    In a footnote Holloway makes the following comment on the topic of objectivity:

    Conservative apologists often introduce a false equivalency here, claiming that critical historians are no less biased than they themselves are. But there is a vast difference between being a finite human being with a limited perspective and unconscious biases and an ideologue with an agenda that cannot be challenged and to which all evidence must bow. Objectivity, like other large and important values such as justice and love, is a stubbornly elusive goal, but it matters if one tries.

    The whole response is well worth reading.
    https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/85377748/Ideology_and_Exesgsis_A_Response_to_Gerald_O_Collins-libre.pdf?1651541037=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DIdeology_and_Exegesis_A_Response_to_Gera.pdf&Expires=1728238330&Signature=E~pKmTslWhatFRcPA-PULWHJKfe8CNfedf9Dmi6FwG3CHs1~-QTIXeQ1D1atDvy1~kfbjP~ejTCK~ctaAqlUAaXO9klI7PqZJowXk5A9~zG0NM41RteCq-4H3c7LGhgwt9h6-Sxm8F8i1R7l4uLkt~OJADKUVKi0VJCWevOQIVmtq18ChQ-5JbFyf1VTN0WsesoHpVZC0hJlkjeIELL-0dJTr7UJp3RypIjRNCSMkAJ48LprCaqc~RWRSxBIehpmNw1pUKolx7tHkv4PcYXRWXF2VGZjtDsMZTF6D~v3Pa9nUsiUPKaEDQkUceAF8OQinTx9J1PmibsJKVCpOQb1Zg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA




  • Wonderment
    Wonderment
    acqsed12345: "This translation violates standard Greek grammar and has been rejected by mainstream biblical scholars across various denominations."

    [First of all, I would like to make a correction on a prior statement. In the statement, "A second blunder made by some scholars is the tendency to group non-nominative nouns with other groups of nouns, genitive, accusative, monadic, etc." It should read instead "to group nominative nouns with other groups of nouns, genitive, etc," a reference to what Countess did in his book.]

    My response to your earlier post was meant to address your declaration that 'the indefinite rendering a god violates standard Greek grammar.' It does not! John 4.19 & Acts 28.4 proves that. It is another argument altogether to claim that such construction theologically changes the equation to support the Trinitarian view. You are free to continue to believe so.

    On Colwell's rule, he himself called it "a theory" in the making. Zerwick referred to Colwell's argumentation as a "theory with appeal [to traditionalists]" Even Julius Mantey who you love to quote has appealed to Harner's article as superceding Colwell's shabby writing. And Hartley wrote: “Colwell appears to be responsible, because of his application to John 1:1, for laying the groundwork of a logical blunder. [...] Where he regarded his rule most important, in the area of translation and interpretation, is exactly where it is in fact most irrelevant yet ironically most dangerous, especially the latter.” (Italics his) So I am not alone in interpreting his article as ineffectual pleading on the subject.

    You claim: "Comparisons with passages like John 4:19 [& Acts 28.4] are misleading." No, they are not. A different theological stand does not change the fact that linguistically they could be translated with indefinite or qualitative expressions. Scholars may say one thing, but do another.

    For example, take John 8.48, ὅτι Σαμαρίτης εἶ σὺ (that Samaritan are you). If you take the time to explore how the following versions (JB, NASB, NIV & the NWT) render this text into French, Italian, Portuguese & Spanish) you will find that they use either the indefinite or qualitative renderings. Are they justified in doing so? Yes, they are. These Bibles could produce indefinite renderings exclusively, or, qualitative at that. They take turns in applying this methodology. In those languages it is legitimate to use both nuances as translation of predicate nouns without the article. This indicates they don't believe in the so-called Colwell's rule.

    And lo and behold! We also find that translators deal with John 1.1 in a similar manner. There are upwards of a hundred Bible versions saying that the Word was divine, godlike, a divine being, a god, and so forth. (Some lists out-there top 200 versions.) At least half of these translators represent the Catholic and Evangelical pool. Considering the evidence, we do well to reconsider the claim that everyone else but the NWT will translate like so.

    In fact, not even the NW translators insist that John 1.1 must be translated only in the indefinite sense. The 1984 edition had this rendering at the top of the page 1579: "Jesus--A Godlike One; Divine...and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)." Amazingly, the Coptic led some scholars to the conclusion that the indefinite rendering "a god" can be qualitative in explanation. This is similar to how the JWs have explained this through the decades. It took the the religious opponents more than 60 years to concede so. These are the facts. Make what you will with this information.

    Unlike Colwell's poor study, Harner's and Dixon's articles are solid in their approach to John 1.1. They are reticent however to publish that qualitative and indefinite nouns overlap frequently. But you could interpret this as a theological objection, not a linguistic issue as they imply. You need to understand that these theologians have a reputation to uphold. Most scholars are afraid to be portrayed as defenders of the cultish group known as JWs. In the end, Bible translators often ignore the conclusions of grammarians, as samples above show. If they really believed everything grammarians compose, they would not translate as they often do.

    On Wallace, in the Foreword he states that readers should not take his theological explanations so seriously, even suggesting readers should ignore these throughout his book. Scholars are just as biased as we are, no less. Wallace even showed his bias on John 1.1 for all to see. Thus, their contributions in the scholarly field are much appreciated, but we have to exercise caution at all times in taking their premises as a final verdict in all matters.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    First, it’s important to address the assertion that scholars who support JW readings are somehow “more objective” because they are not themselves JWs, and that Trinitarian scholars are invariably biased because they hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. This framing presents a false dichotomy that oversimplifies the complexity of scholarship and theological interpretation.

    You claim that non-Trinitarian scholars are “more objective” because they are “free” from “faith commitments” like those of Trinitarian scholars. Every scholar, regardless of their background, brings presuppositions to their work. Non-Trinitarian scholars, including atheists, liberal Christians, or others, are not inherently more objective just because they reject traditional Christian doctrines. Their own worldviews influence their interpretations of the biblical text. For instance, liberal theologians and agnostics might have biases against traditional Christian beliefs, just as Trinitarian scholars are influenced by their theological commitments.

    The idea that only Trinitarian scholars are “biased” ignores the fact that historical interpretation is shaped by a multitude of factors, including philosophical, cultural, and theological assumptions. No scholar is completely free of these influences. Therefore, objectivity should not be determined by whether someone holds a specific theological position but by the rigor, coherence, and depth of their analysis.

    The suggestion that the doctrine of the Trinity is merely read back into the Bible by “Trinitarian believers” is an oversimplification of the development of Christian doctrine. The church fathers did not simply invent the Trinity by imposing later theological constructs onto the text. Instead, they wrestled with the scriptural witness and the theological implications of the New Testament’s teachings on God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    The doctrine of the Trinity was not “invented” out of thin air; it developed as the early church sought to faithfully articulate what was already present in the biblical witness. For example, the New Testament presents clear evidence that Jesus was worshiped as divine, prayed to, and understood to share in the divine nature with the Father and the Holy Spirit (e.g., John 1:1, Philippians 2:6-11, Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14). The church fathers synthesized these scriptural affirmations into the formal doctrine of the Trinity to express the unity of the Godhead while preserving the distinctiveness of the three persons.

    Even before the formal articulation of the Trinity at Nicaea, Christians were already worshiping Jesus as God, which would be blasphemous under strict Jewish monotheism if Jesus were not divine (Revelation 5:13-14, Philippians 2:9-11). This practice reflects the early Christian recognition of Jesus' divine status, laying the groundwork for later doctrinal formulations like the Trinity.

    The claim that Philippians 2:6-11 presents a "Jewish angel Christology" and does not support Nicene Christology is another point of contention. For example, I can’t see any mention of “angels” in Philippians 2, you and the authors you promote may have hallucinated this, but there is no mention of angels there. Paul’s hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 speaks of Jesus as one who was "in the form of God" (μορφῇ θεοῦ), yet did not grasp at equality with God but emptied Himself, taking on human form. The exaltation of Jesus to the point where every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord" (κύριος) echoes the language used for Yahweh in the Old Testament (Isaiah 45:23). Far from implying that Jesus was merely an angel, this passage affirms His divine status, as worship and the attribution of the title “Lord” are reserved for God alone in Jewish monotheism.

    Holloway’s assertion that Philippians 2:6-11 reflects a "Jewish angel Christology" and not Nicene orthodoxy overlooks the early church's understanding of this text. The hymn depicts Christ’s pre-existence, His incarnation, and His subsequent exaltation. The early church fathers, including those leading up to Nicaea, saw this passage as supporting the idea of Christ’s divinity and His eternal relationship with the Father. The idea of Christ being a mere angelic figure does not account for the depth of Paul’s theological reflection in this passage, which emphasizes both His humility and divine authority.

    The author claims that Philippians 2:6-11 represents a “Jewish angel Christology” rather than Nicene theology. This assertion hinges on the idea that Paul's Christology is shaped by Jewish apocalyptic traditions that depict Christ as a kind of exalted angelic figure, and this contrasts with Nicene Christology, which presents Christ as of one essence with the Father (homoousios). This argument is built upon a flawed understanding of early Christology. While it's true that early Jewish and Christian thought shared some common apocalyptic themes, including angelic figures, Paul’s Christology in Philippians 2:6-11 is far more developed and cannot be reduced to angelomorphic categories. The text describes Jesus as being “in the form of God” (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ), which is not merely about status but about His divine nature. The concept of μορφῇ (form) here transcends mere appearance and points toward His essential nature. Paul's usage of “being in the form of God” reflects an understanding of Christ’s pre-existence and His participation in the divine identity, which is consistent with later Nicene orthodoxy. To claim that Paul viewed Christ as a high angel downplays the fullness of the term μορφῇ and ignores the theological trajectory evident in Paul's writings.

    Holloway’s argument suggests that μορφῇ θεοῦ (form of God) in Philippians 2:6 is merely a status marker and does not have ontological significance. He asserts that μορφῇ should be interpreted as referring to Christ’s outward appearance as a powerful angel, rather than His essential divine nature. While μορφῇ can refer to external form in some contexts, it also has deeper connotations, especially in theological usage. In Philippians 2:6, μορφῇ θεοῦ implies more than just an outward appearance; it refers to the pre-existent Christ sharing in the very nature of God. This is evident from the fact that the passage speaks of Christ not grasping at equality with God, which would be nonsensical if He did not already possess it. Furthermore, the passage continues to describe Christ emptying Himself and taking on the form of a servant (μορφὴν δούλου). This indicates that Christ's kenosis (self-emptying) involved a real change in status without a change in His divine nature. Therefore, μορφῇ in this context has both ontological and functional aspects.

    Holloway criticizes Gerald O'Collins for reading Philippians 2:6-11 as anticipating Nicene Christology, arguing instead that the passage does not support the later theological developments of homoousios (of one substance) and instead reflects a pre-Nicene, Jewish angel Christology. The Nicene understanding of Christ as homoousios with the Father is not an „imposition” on the text of Philippians 2:6-11 but a faithful development of the Christology that Paul presents. The idea that Christ existed “in the form of God” before His Incarnation and then “emptied Himself” presupposes His divine status. The passage articulates a pre-existent Christ who is fully divine and voluntarily takes on human nature without relinquishing His divinity. This is entirely consistent with the Nicene declaration that Christ is of the same substance as the Father. The Nicene Creed did not invent this theology but codified what was already implicitly present in Paul's writings and other New Testament texts, which depict Christ as fully God and fully man.

    Holloway posits that the kenosis described in Philippians 2:7 refers to Christ undergoing a transformation similar to the shape-shifting found in Jewish and pagan myths, where divine beings take on various forms. The kenosis of Christ in Philippians 2:7 is not a mere metamorphosis or change in outward form. Rather, it involves a profound act of humility where Christ, though fully divine, assumes the limitations of human nature. The emptying does not imply a loss of divinity but a relinquishing of divine prerogatives. Christ's incarnation involves taking on the full reality of human existence, including suffering and death, while remaining divine. The Nicene understanding captures this beautifully by affirming that Christ is fully God and fully man. The idea of Christ merely undergoing a superficial metamorphosis undermines the depth of the incarnation and the full scope of the redemption that He accomplished.

    Holloway argues that Paul’s citation of Isaiah 45:23 in Philippians 2:10-11, which speaks of every knee bowing to Christ, reflects Jewish angelology where exalted angels bear the divine name and execute divine judgment on behalf of God. He rejects the idea that this points to Christ’s divine nature. Paul’s application of Isaiah 45:23 to Christ in Philippians 2:10-11 is a clear indication of his belief in Christ’s divinity. The passage from Isaiah speaks of universal worship directed to Yahweh, and Paul applies this to Christ, thereby identifying Christ with the God of Israel. This is not merely an exaltation of an angelic being but a recognition of Christ's divine status. The language used here, particularly the confession that "Jesus Christ is Lord" (κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός), resonates with the divine title for Yahweh (κύριος in the LXX). Paul’s Jewish monotheism is not compromised by including Christ in the divine identity; rather, it is redefined to account for the full revelation of God in Christ.

    The footnote from Holloway that you mentioned introduces the idea that "conservative apologists" claim that critical historians are no less biased than themselves. Holloway’s assertion that critical historians are pursuing objectivity while apologists are ideologues with unchallenged agendas creates an unjustified dichotomy. It is important to recognize that both Trinitarian scholars and critical historians are engaging with the same texts, but they do so with different interpretative frameworks. Trinitarian scholars are not simply “ideologues” attempting to protect a dogma at all costs; they are often scholars of great intellectual rigor who have carefully examined the historical and theological evidence in favor of the Trinity. Similarly, non-Trinitarian scholars may have their own interpretative biases that shape their conclusions. The pursuit of objectivity is not exclusive to one camp, and both sides contribute to the ongoing theological conversation.

    In conclusion, your argument that non-Trinitarian scholars are inherently “more objective” because they lack a “faith commitment” is fundamentally flawed. Every scholar brings their own set of presuppositions to the table, and the task of biblical interpretation requires careful examination of both the text and its theological implications. The development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a response to the whole biblical narrative and was not imposed on the text by later dogma. Moreover, Philippians 2 and other key passages reflect the early Christian belief in the divinity of Christ, not merely an angelic or secondary figure. The interpretation of these texts must be rooted in the historical context of early Christian worship and theological reflection, not in modern revisionist theories that dismiss the rich theological tradition of the church.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    The Jew, Philo described the Logos as an archangel and a secondary god around the time that the gospel of John was written.

    Philo, like the writer of G.John, represents a bridge between Greek Logos and the Hebrew OT. He uses language familiar to Jewish readers like 'archangel' but does not suggest the Logos is a secondary god, in fact he argues against that. He/it/she is God's word in action. As such it not in the fullest sense all that God is but it is not apart from God either. A number of authors have seen in his comments an equivalence to John 1 even to the detail of the definite article.

    Philosophy, especially one trying to use language not intended for that purpose is necessarily opaque. The 'Two Powers" conceptualization is in play, but Philo is clear he does not mean 'Two Gods".

    But when it is said I am the God who was seen of thee 
    in the place of God we must ask: "Are there then two 
    Gods," as the phrase suggests? He that is truly God is 
    one, but they who are loosely so called are many. Where- 
    fore the holy Word uses the definite article of him who 
    is truly God, and not of the many. In the present instance 
    it is his most ancient Logos that is called God — not that 
    the writer is superstitious about the application of terms, 
    but because he sets one goal before himself to keep to his 
    system. For no name belongs rightly to the Absolute, who 
    is of a nature to exist simply, not to be described

    I realize you have a prior conviction regarding the complete individuality in Jesus, and this resists the notion that Christ could be a personification of the Word of the God of the Jews. This is of course not the Trinity doctrine nor is it the Arian position, both were literalizations/rationalizations of the Christ figure of Paul and the earliest Christians, that is in a large way the result of the Gospel dramatization being mistaken as history.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    You say:

    He uses language familiar to Jewish readers like 'archangel' but does not suggest the Logos is a secondary god, in fact he argues against that.

    Philo says:

    For nothing mortal can be made in the likeness of the most high One and Father of the universe but (only) in that of the second God (deuteron theon) who is his Logos. Questionis in Genesim 2:62, quoted in Two Gods in Heaven (2020) by Peter Schäfer.
  • Earnest
    Earnest

    aqwsed12345 : The phrase [John 1:1c] doesn't say "the Word was the God," which would confuse the Logos with the Father.

    aqwsed12345 : John 1:1b should actually be translated as "and the Word was with the God".

    Let me try again. I think we can agree that the readers of John's gospel at the time he wrote it would have understood what the Greek meant. Perhaps the Jewish audience would have understood it slightly differently to the gentile audience, but both would have appreciated the relevance of the definite article or lack of it.

    Now we are talking about translation into English. You say that John 1:1b should actually be translated as "and the Word was with the God", but it isn't, is it? It is invariably translated "and the Word was with God". Then you have John 1:1c which reads in English that "the Word was God". How does the English reader know that there is any distinction between the God of John 1:1b and that of John 1:1c? If "the God" is implied in John 1:1b "and the Word was with [the] God", how does the English reader know that it is not implied in John 1:1c "the Word was [the] God". They do not, and often assume that the definite article is implied in both cases. This is no fault of the writer, who wrote in Greek. It is the fault of the translator. While you agree that John 1:1c refers to the nature of the Word, you support this misleading translation which most English readers understand to refer to a person rather than a quality. You can do better.

    I would also like to touch on your reference to the nomina sacra. You suggest that because Lord is a "sacred name" (i.e. it is abbreviated) when referring to both God and Christ, this shows that the Gospel writers (and Paul) viewed them both the same. First it must be said that while some papyri distinguish between Lord when it referred to God or Christ, and Lord when it referred to others, other papyri treat all references to Lord as a sacred name. Should that cause us to view all lords as equally sacred? I think not. Secondly, we know that the Jews did not use nomina sacra prior to the time it is used in Christian writings, so it is reasonable to believe that the earliest Christian writings also did not use them. We don't know because we don't have those writings, but we do know all the earliest Christian writings were by Jews so it is reasonable they would write in the same way. Some maintain that nomina sacra were first used to replace the divine name, as we know that happened in the LXX. Of course, it then became more difficult to distinguish between Lord when it referred to God and when it referred to Christ. This is the fallacy which you are highlighting.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Wonderment

    The claim that the indefinite rendering "a god" does not violate standard Greek grammar and that John 4:19 and Acts 28:4 prove this is misguided. The Greek construction in John 1:1c is unique because it involves an anarthrous predicate nominative before the verb, which is a key point in Colwell's analysis. Colwell’s Rule states that when a predicate nominative precedes the verb, as in John 1:1c, the lack of an article does not imply indefiniteness but rather definiteness or a qualitative sense. This rule has been widely accepted and applied by many scholars, even if later analyses like those of Harner focused more on the qualitative aspect of nouns.

    You suggest that Colwell's Rule is not widely accepted. This claim is an oversimplification. While some scholars have critiqued Colwell's rule, it remains a useful tool for understanding the Greek grammatical structure. Colwell's work demonstrates that a predicate nominative without an article preceding the verb is often definite. Therefore, in John 1:1c, the absence of the article before "theos" doesn’t imply "a god," but rather a qualitative sense, affirming the Logos' divine nature.

    Your argument relies heavily on the notion that the indefinite rendering "a god" in John 1:1 is linguistically and theologically valid based on examples like John 4:19 and Acts 28:4. However, these comparisons are misleading because the grammatical context of John 1:1 differs significantly from these examples. John 1:1c is not simply a qualitative or indefinite predicate nominative in casual speech but a highly theological statement meant to emphasize the nature of the Logos. In John 4:19, the Samaritan woman is making a situational judgment, referring to Jesus as "a prophet." In John 1:1, the theological focus on the Word's eternal divine nature contrasts with the woman’s recognition of Jesus as "a prophet." Acts 28:4 is not grammatically parallel either, as the context is entirely different.

    The examples of John 4:19 and Acts 28:4 involve different grammatical structures. John 4:19 uses "προφήτης εἶ" (you are a prophet), where the predicate noun ("prophet") follows the verb and lacks an article. This can be translated as "a prophet" because it is describing a quality or category that the woman attributes to Jesus based on her experience. However, John 1:1c's construction, θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, is different because the predicate noun θεὸς precedes the verb. This change in word order alters the grammatical expectations. In this case, the anarthrous θεὸς functions qualitatively, indicating that the Word possesses the full nature of God. The absence of the article does not imply "a god" in the sense of a lesser or separate deity but rather emphasizes the fully divine essence of the Word.

    Colwell’s Rule has not been discarded by the majority of scholars. While it is true that Colwell referred to his work as a "theory," his conclusions regarding Greek syntax and the use of the article have been foundational to biblical Greek studies. The dismissal of Colwell’s Rule by some individuals is often rooted in theological bias rather than objective linguistic analysis.

    The structure of John 1:1, specifically “kai theos ēn ho logos”, emphasizes the qualitative nature of the term "theos," meaning that the Word possesses the divine nature, not that the Word is a separate or lesser god. The anarthrous "theos" here is best understood qualitatively, as scholars like Harner, Dixon, and Wallace point out. The translation "the Word was a god" introduces theological ambiguity inconsistent with the broader Johannine context, which asserts a clear monotheistic framework. Furthermore, the absence of the article does not necessarily imply indefiniteness in Greek; rather, it emphasizes the nature of the subject, which is divine in this case.

    The suggestion that qualitative and indefinite nouns overlap frequently in Greek is an oversimplification. While there can be some overlap, the context and word order in a sentence are critical for determining the correct interpretation. In John 1:1c, the lack of an article before θεὸς does not suggest indefiniteness ("a god") but rather a qualitative sense ("the Word was [fully] divine"). This is supported by the context of the prologue of John, where the Word is consistently portrayed as having divine attributes and preexisting creation.

    In linguistic terms, the qualitative use of a noun emphasizes the nature or essence of the subject. In John 1:1, θεὸς describes the Word’s divine nature, not a lower or separate category of being. The argument that "a god" is an acceptable translation relies on an incorrect understanding of Greek syntax and ignores the context of John's Gospel, which is monotheistic and affirms the divinity of Christ.

    But IMHO instead of playing with this definite-indefinite stuff, which goes with John 1:1c, I would rather put the emphasis on whether, assuming an audience with a Hellenic polytheistic cultural background, it was surely the most adequate thing for the apostles to use the word θεός to apply the Son, if they only wanted to state that "godlike, only such a powerful spiritual being, who is the creature and representative of the one God", when many other expressions would have been available for this, like θεος, ἡμίθεος, ἥρως, θεϊκός, θεϊνός, θεώτερος. Btw. originally δαίμων simply used to mean an inferior deity, whether good or bad, not a demon, an evil spirit.

    You cite examples from other languages, such as French and Spanish, where indefinite or qualitative translations are used. However, the grammatical rules of those languages do not necessarily apply to Koine Greek. The Greek construction in John 1:1c does not demand an indefinite article like "a god," as the context of the passage is not introducing a new or different god but affirming the divine nature of the Logos within the framework of Jewish monotheism.

    Your reliance on the Sahidic Coptic translation to argue for "a god" in John 1:1c is problematic. Scholars like Jason BeDuhn have pointed out that the Coptic translation can be understood qualitatively, meaning "divine" rather than "a god." The Coptic translators were not advocating an Arian view, and the use of the indefinite article reflects grammatical distinctions in Coptic, not Greek.

    While some translations render John 1:1c as "the Word was divine," most mainstream scholars reject the translation "a god" as inconsistent with both the grammatical structure of the Greek and the theological context of John's Gospel. The vast majority of scholars affirm that John 1:1c expresses the divine nature of the Logos, rather than presenting the Word as a separate, lesser deity.

    The argument that "upwards of a hundred Bible versions" translate John 1:1 as "a god" or "divine" is misleading. The overwhelming majority of biblical translations, across various denominations and theological traditions, render John 1:1c as "the Word was God." This is not a result of theological bias but a consistent application of Greek grammar, context, and theological interpretation. Versions that deviate from this, such as the New World Translation, are often criticized for theological motives rather than linguistic accuracy.

    The suggestion that many scholars or translations reject Colwell's Rule or support the indefinite rendering "a god" is inaccurate. Prominent scholars like Wallace, Harner, and Dixon continue to support the qualitative interpretation of θεὸς in John 1:1c. Harner and Dixon, who have analyzed the qualitative nature of anarthrous predicate nouns, affirm that the Word shares in the divine essence, not that it is a separate, lesser god.

    The argument that Jesus being called "a god" aligns with the biblical concept of the Son of God is a theological misunderstanding. In Jewish monotheism, the title "Son of God" is not used to suggest that Jesus is merely a lesser or subordinate deity. Instead, it affirms His unique relationship with the Father and His participation in the divine nature. The context of John's Gospel emphasizes the Logos's preexistence and divine status, aligning with the doctrine of the Trinity, not with a polytheistic or henotheistic framework.

    The comparison to John 8:48, where Jesus is called a Samaritan without an article, is irrelevant to the discussion of John 1:1. In John 8:48, the term "Samaritan" is being used as an insult, reflecting a different context and usage. The absence of an article in this case has no bearing on the theological and grammatical structure of John 1:1, where the focus is on the nature and identity of the Word.

    You claim that scholars are biased in defending the traditional Trinitarian view. However, scholarly methodology is based on linguistic evidence, not theological agendas. The qualitative reading of John 1:1c aligns with the monotheistic framework of John's Gospel and the broader New Testament. It reflects the understanding that the Logos is fully divine without being identical to the Father, which fits the broader Christian theological tradition.

    The consistent use of nomina sacra (sacred abbreviations) for both the Father and the Son in early manuscripts, as you mentioned, shows that early Christians understood Jesus as sharing fully in the divine nature. This practice undermines the argument that the Logos is merely "a god."

    Moreover, your argument suggests that because certain translations use qualitative or indefinite renderings in other contexts, John 1:1c could also be translated as "a god." This overlooks the fact that the theological implications of John 1:1 are far more significant than in the examples you provide. Translating the phrase as "a god" introduces theological henotheism, which is entirely foreign to John's monotheistic worldview.

    Finally, your dismissal of Colwell's rule as outdated or flawed is misleading. While Colwell's rule has been debated, it still holds significant value in understanding Greek grammar, especially in cases like John 1:1c. The rule's application to this verse helps clarify that the absence of the article before "theos" does not imply an indefinite meaning but rather points to the qualitative nature of the term.

    The attempt to undermine the standard translation of John 1:1 as "the Word was God" is based on a misunderstanding of Greek grammar, syntax, and theological context. The qualitative nature of "θεὸς" in John 1:1c affirms the full divinity of the Word, not a lesser status. The scholarly consensus supports this interpretation, and attempts to translate the verse as "a god" reflect theological bias rather than linguistic accuracy.

    In conclusion, translating John 1:1c as "the Word was God" aligns with both the linguistic and theological context of the passage. The rendering "a god" not only misinterprets the Greek grammar but also introduces unnecessary theological confusion inconsistent with John's intention to affirm the divine nature of the Word.

    @slimboyfat

    Doesn't it rally bother you that those are not Philo's words, but Schäfer's interpretations? You really can't touch the original body of text without some liberal modernist author telling you what to think about it?

    @Earnest

    Your argument hinges on the assumption that English readers might confuse "the Word was God" (John 1:1c) with an implication of "the Word was *the God," conflating the Logos with the Father due to a presumed lack of distinction between definite and indefinite nouns. But in Greek, John makes a clear distinction between "ho theos" (the God) in 1:1b and the anarthrous "theos" in 1:1c. The absence of the article in 1:1c is not random but serves a specific grammatical function. Theos is used qualitatively here to describe the nature or essence of the Word, meaning that the Word possesses full divinity without being identical to the Father. Translating it as "the Word was God" properly reflects this qualitative distinction.

    English readers do not need to infer a definite article in John 1:1c because "God" in this context already implies the nature of the Logos, not a separate deity. The traditional rendering, although not inserting "the" before "God," accurately conveys the qualitative sense in line with John's theology. To translate it as "a god" or even "the God" would mislead readers into thinking of either henothism or modalism, which John's Gospel clearly rejects.

    In John 1:1b, the phrase "πρὸς τὸν θεόν" (pros ton theon) has a definite article "ton" (the God), which distinguishes it as a reference to the Father. In John 1:1c, "θεὸς" (theos) lacks the article. However, this absence does not imply "a god" but rather serves a qualitative function, indicating the Word's divine nature. The lack of the article emphasizes the nature or quality of divinity rather than pointing to a specific god. If it causes the kind of issue you mentioned, it is not due to the traditional rendering of John 1:1c, it should not be touched upon, but to 1:1b, which indeed should be translated as "and the Word was with the God".

    Translating John 1:1c as "the Word was God" affirms the Logos' full participation in divinity without confusing the Logos with the Father, who is referred to as "the God" in 1:1b. The problem with the translation "the Word was a god" (as in the NWT) is that it introduces henotheistic overtones, suggesting the existence of multiple gods, which is incompatible with the monotheism that undergirds John's Gospel. You argue that English readers would confuse the two references to God, but this confusion only arises if they misunderstand the qualitative nature of "theos" in 1:1c. The phrase "the Word was God" (without the definite article) emphasizes what the Word is—fully divine—without implying that the Word is "the God" (the Father). Translators do not supply "the" in John 1:1c because that would misrepresent the qualitative nature intended in the Greek.

    As for the NEB's "what God was, the Word was," this is a valid paraphrase emphasizing the same theological point: the Logos shares fully in divine essence. However, "the Word was God" retains this meaning in a more concise form, and any perceived confusion arises not from the translation but from a misunderstanding of how Greek articles function to convey essence rather than identity.

    Therefore, while translating John 1:1c as "the Word was God" accurately captures the qualitative nature of the Logos, it does not confuse the Logos with the Father, as John's Gospel is careful to distinguish between the persons of the Trinity while affirming their shared divine essence.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Earnest

    You state that some papyri treat all references to "Lord" as nomina sacra, regardless of whom it refers to, implying that this undermines the idea that the use of nomina sacra signified equality between the Father and Christ. However, this is not quite accurate. While some later manuscripts might have generalized the use of nomina sacra, the earliest Christian scribes were far more deliberate in their application of sacred names. Nomina sacra were consistently used to distinguish the divine or sacred from the mundane. For example, references to "Lord" (Kyrios) or "God" (Theos) that clearly refer to Christ or the Father were treated as sacred, while mundane uses of the same terms were spelled out in full.

    I think that the reason for this is that after the Edict of Milan, the copying of the biblical text became more widespread as a reader read the text aloud in a room, and several scribes present wrote it after hearing it. Thus, the person who did not see the original text, but only wrote after hearing it, simply automatically marked all such expressions as nomina sacra.

    This distinction reveals that early Christians made conscious theological decisions when applying these abbreviations. In cases where "Lord" referred to Christ or God, the sacred abbreviation was always applied, signaling that these titles were held in equal reverence. The presence of these abbreviations for both Christ and the Father indicates that the earliest Christian scribes viewed Christ as fully divine, not merely as an honored figure but as one sharing in the divine essence of God.

    You argue that because the earliest Christian writers were Jewish, it is reasonable to assume that nomina sacra were not initially used, as Jews did not employ this practice. However, this conclusion overlooks a critical shift that occurred in early Christian scribal practices. While it is true that the Jewish scribal tradition did not initially use nomina sacra, early Christians quickly developed their own practices to reflect their theological understanding, which was distinct from Judaism. Some scholars, like Robert Kraft propose that the practice originated among Jews and was taken over and elaborated by Christians. I think the reason for the lack of Jewish manuscripts using the nomina sacra is that as Christianity became widespread, Diaspora Jewry set aside Greek-language religiosity, and the Septuagint also fell out of Jewish use.

    One such development was the introduction of nomina sacra, which likely began with the abbreviation of the name of Jesus and then expanded to include other key titles, such as "Lord" and "God." These abbreviations were not merely copying Jewish tradition but reflected the early Christians' new understanding of Jesus' divine identity and their need to express reverence for sacred terms. As Larry Hurtado has argued, the use of nomina sacra demonstrates a unique Christian innovation aimed at honoring Christ alongside God the Father.

    You mention the theory that nomina sacra may have originated as replacements for the divine name (the Tetragrammaton) in the Septuagint (LXX), which, according to your argument, caused “confusion” in distinguishing between references to God and Christ. While it is true that the divine name was often replaced with "Lord" (Kyrios) in the LXX, this practice does not diminish the theological significance of nomina sacra in Christian texts.

    The key point is that in the New Testament manuscripts, nomina sacra were not simply a continuation of Jewish scribal practices but a deliberate Christian innovation to reflect the theological significance of Jesus Christ as divine. The use of nomina sacra for both the Father and the Son in the earliest manuscripts signals that the early Christians were expressing their belief in the shared divinity of the Father and the Son. This theological choice is significant because it highlights the early Christian understanding of Christ's divine status in a way that transcends the ordinary distinction between human and divine figures.

    Your claim that the use of nomina sacra caused “confusion” between references to God and Christ actually supports the argument that early Christians saw Christ as divine. If there had been a clear and unequivocal distinction between Christ as a created being and God as the Almighty, we would expect the scribes to make that distinction explicit in their writings. However, the fact that they applied the same sacred abbreviations to both Christ and God demonstrates that they did not see Christ as a lesser being, but as sharing in the same divine status as the Father.

    The use of nomina sacra for both "God" and "Lord" in reference to Christ is a powerful indicator of the early Christian belief in the divinity of Christ. This was not a confusion or a fallacy, but a reflection of the early Christian understanding that Christ and the Father are of the same divine essence, even though they are distinct persons within the Godhead.

    The use of nomina sacra in early Christian manuscripts is a significant theological marker that demonstrates the early Christians' belief in the divinity of Christ. Far from causing confusion, these sacred abbreviations reveal a deliberate and consistent effort to honor Christ as fully divine, in the same way that God the Father is honored. The early Christian practice of using nomina sacra for both the Father and the Son highlights the shared divine status of both persons, and it reflects the development of the doctrine of the Trinity, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are understood to be co-equal and co-eternal within the one divine essence.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Simple. JWs want to serve the true God Jehovah. No one else does.

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