How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat 164 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    The claim that nomina sacra (abbreviations for sacred names like "God," "Lord," "Jesus," etc.) were introduced at a "later" stage after the NT texts were written—and that the early Christian authors did not use them—deserves a critical response, particularly regarding the argument's assumptions and historical context. It is true that there is some debate among scholars regarding the exact timing of the introduction of nomina sacra into early Christian manuscripts. However, to suggest that nomina sacra were entirely absent from the original NT documents or from the very early stages of Christianity overlooks several important points. While the earliest NT manuscripts available to us (such as P52) are indeed fragmentary, other early Christian manuscripts—such as P46 and P66, both from the 2nd century—show widespread use of nomina sacra. This suggests that nomina sacra were already well-established by the time these texts were circulating. To assume that the NT authors and scribes did not use them in their original writings seems speculative, given how pervasive the practice was just a short time after the originals were written.

    The adoption of nomina sacra likely developed quite early in Christian communities as part of a distinct scribal tradition, possibly as a way to show reverence for the sacred names and distinguish Christian manuscripts from other texts. This does not require all the NT authors to have spontaneously "decided" to use this notation. Rather, it points to a shared theological and liturgical context in which scribes and early Christians used symbols or abbreviations for sacred words, showing a sense of uniformity across Christian communities.

    The analogy of randomness in this argument—that Jehovah's Witnesses supposedly "randomly stumbled upon" a Christology more in line with what early Christians believed—raises a number of issues. It is inaccurate to claim that recent scholarship “universally” supports a non-Trinitarian Christology as more aligned with early Christianity. In fact, many of the earliest Christian writings, including those by the Church Fathers, strongly affirm the divinity of Christ, as seen in figures like Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD), who referred to Christ as "our God" repeatedly. To argue that the Jehovah's Witness Christology is closer to that of early Christians ignores a vast amount of early Christian literature that supports Christ's deity and the unity of the Trinity.

    The idea that Jehovah's Witnesses have "stumbled upon" an early Christian view of Christology relies on selective readings of Scripture and anachronistic interpretations of early Christian writings. The Watchtower Society's theology stems not from historical continuity with early Christian thought, but from the specific theological innovations and speculations of Charles T. Russell and his successors in the late 19th century. Their rejection of the Trinity is part of a broader theological agenda that includes denying many key aspects of mainstream Christian teaching, not the result of a deep historical alignment with early Christian beliefs.

    Even if nomina sacra were introduced after the initial writing of the NT texts (a claim still debated), their presence in manuscripts like P66 or P46 points to a very early recognition of the unique and sacred nature of certain names and titles for God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The use of nomina sacra is consistent with the development of early Trinitarian theology, in which the divine nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit was increasingly clarified and defended against heretical views.

    For example, the nomina sacra for "Jesus" and "Lord" (κύριος/kurios), which were used early on, reflect the titles attributed to Christ in NT writings that affirm His divine status, such as John 1:1, where the Word is described as God, and Philippians 2:6-11, where Jesus is exalted and given the name above every name, a clear attribution of divine authority.

    The debate between Bart Ehrman and Daniel Wallace highlights scholarly discussions about various aspects of textual criticism, but the issue at hand is more about how early Christians understood Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not disprove the Trinity; rather, it affirms the monotheistic framework within which Christians understood the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ. Paul distinguishes between the Father and the Son, but this does not imply subordinationism or the rejection of Christ's deity. Instead, it reflects a theological development that culminates in the full expression of Trinitarian doctrine.

    The argument against the Trinity based on the use of nomina sacra or the assumption that early Christians were unaware of Christ's deity is flawed. The nomina sacra tradition, the writings of the earliest Church Fathers, and the NT itself all point to an early and widespread recognition of Christ's divine status. The JW interpretation of Christology is a modern innovation, not a "recovery" of early Christian belief, and should not be confused with the theological developments that occurred in the first few centuries of the Church.

    @Earnest

    Your critique seems to center on two primary arguments: (1) that the use of nomina sacra likely originated as an act of reverence towards divine names and thus reflects a developed Christian scribal practice, rather than something directly tied to the original writings, and (2) that capitalizing "God" in John 1:1 could blur the qualitative distinction between the two uses of "God" (theon) and "God" (theos). I'll address each of these points in turn.

    You argue that the original writers, most of whom were Jewish, likely did not employ the nomina sacra system, as it was a later Christian scribal innovation. While this hypothesis is reasonable, it is not conclusive. By the way, this view is based on some Greek OT manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, but each of them contains the divine name in a different way, and the Qumran community did not even represent the mainstream of Judaism. From these it is not possible to draw far-reaching conclusions about the scribal practice of the Jews as a whole.

    (Here I will digress for a thought: I once argued with a JW about the hypothesis that if they found one single 2-3rd century NT manuscript fragment which would contain some form of the Tetragrammaton (e.g. IAO). Well, what would that prove? That this was the original apostolic variant? That the JW emphasis on the "use" of the Tetragrammaton was the original mainstream in the apostolic age? Not even remotely! This would prove only that there was also such a thing, we would not really know anything about who made it, what group it belonged to, what theological background represented. For example, according to Pietersma, the Greek OT editions with the forms of the Tetragrammaton are the result of a rehabraizing recension, so the hypothetical NT manuscript I suggested could also be the own product of a Judaizing heterodox sect (e.g. Ebionites), so we wouldn't really know anything, it's all just speculation, but let's not doubt it, the WTS would immediately start celebrating triumphantly…)

    You assert that because there is no evidence of nomina sacra in first-century Septuagint manuscripts, we should conclude that the NT writers did not use it either. However, absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. The earliest extant manuscripts containing nomina sacra date from the 2nd century, but we do not possess original NT autographs, only later copies. The fact that nomina sacra are found in very early Christian manuscripts suggests that the practice could have been in use earlier, even potentially during the time of the original authors. Since these earliest manuscripts already exhibit the practice, it is possible, though not provable, that the NT writers or their immediate followers introduced or at least approved of this scribal convention.

    While you argue that the use of nomina sacra could have been anathema to the Jewish authors of the NT, it is important to remember that early Christians, though Jewish by background, were not merely continuing Jewish scribal traditions. The early Christian community made numerous innovations in response to their belief in Jesus as the Messiah and their understanding of his divine nature. These innovations included changes in the way they interpreted and applied Scripture. For example, while many Jews continued to write the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) in special characters or avoided pronouncing it altogether, early Christians began to refer to Jesus using divine titles like "Lord" (Kyrios), which had been reserved for God in the Septuagint. This shift in usage reflects the theological significance early Christians attributed to Jesus. Therefore, it's plausible that early Christians might have introduced the nomina sacra as a way of reverently distinguishing divine names, particularly in relation to Jesus, even if this practice had not been common in Jewish scribal traditions.

    Larry Hurtado’s argument that nomina sacra likely began with the name "Jesus" and expanded to other sacred terms is compelling because it reflects the centrality of Jesus in early Christian worship. Even if the exact origin of nomina sacra is debated, the point remains that by the time we have extant Christian manuscripts, this practice was already well established. Whether the practice began with "Jesus" or the Tetragrammaton is secondary to the fact that it was used deliberately to signify reverence and divinity. Hurtado and other scholars suggest that the use of nomina sacra was not simply a mechanical device but a theological one, marking the distinction between the sacred and the mundane.

    You raise an important question about the capitalization of "God" in John 1:1, particularly whether this blurs the distinction between "the Word was with God" (theon) and "the Word was God" (theos). Here's why I believe capitalizing "God" in both instances is justified. The distinction between ton theon and theos in John 1:1 does not reflect a difference in nature or status between the two uses of "God," but rather a grammatical distinction. In the phrase "the Word was with [the] God" (pros ton theon), the article (ton) specifies that "God" refers to the person of the Father. In the second phrase, "and the Word was God" (kai theos ēn ho logos), the absence of the article emphasizes the divine nature of the Word rather than identifying the Word as a separate "God." The use of the qualitative predicate theos underscores the essential divinity of the Word without implying polytheism or the existence of multiple gods. Early Christian interpreters understood this passage to mean that the Word (Jesus) shares fully in the divine nature of the Father, even while being a distinct person within the Godhead.

    You argue that capitalizing "God" in both instances might confuse English readers by implying that both uses of "God" refer to the same person. However, this is a misunderstanding of how capitalization functions in translation. Modern translations capitalize "God" in John 1:1c ("and the Word was God") to convey the full deity of the Word, in keeping with the early Christian belief that Jesus is fully divine. Capitalizing "God" here does not blur the distinction between the Word and the Father but rather affirms the shared divine essence of both. The qualitative nature of the second use of theos is preserved by recognizing that the Word possesses the same divine nature as the Father while remaining a distinct person.

    The practice of capitalizing "God" in English translations of John 1:1 reflects the theological conclusions reached by the early Church in its articulation of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity emerged not as an imposition on the text but as a faithful interpretation of passages like John 1:1, where the relationship between the Father and the Son is described in terms of both distinction (the Word was with God) and unity (the Word was God). Early Christian scribes, as evidenced by their use of nomina sacra, understood this dynamic and reverently applied the same sacred titles to both the Father and the Son.

    In summary, while you raise valid points about the potential origins of nomina sacra and the implications of capitalizing "God" in John 1:1, your conclusions are not the only plausible ones. The use of nomina sacra likely reflects a theological innovation by early Christians to express their belief in the full divinity of Christ. This practice underscores the reverence they had for both the Father and the Son as sharing in the same divine essence. Capitalizing "God" in English translations of John 1:1 preserves the theological integrity of the text, affirming the divinity of the Word while maintaining the distinction between the persons of the Trinity.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    aqwsed12345, you are arguing that John 1:1 states that Jesus is God and many people believe that Jesus is God because of that. That was written 65 years after Jesus died.

    What did people believe prior to that? During those 65 years?

    And why did John write the prologue?

    Nowhere in Acts does it teach that Jesus was God. Infact it teaches the opposite. Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God 7:56 just like it says in Ps 110:1. In Acts 2 Peter states that God resurrected Jesus.

    Did John write 1:1 because Stephen and Peter were wrong?

    The book of John was a biography of Jesus. It starts just before his baptism with John, after his baptism with the calling of his apostles. then chapt 2 with his first miracle.

    You see, John wrote the prologue to tell the readers that this Jesus was not some dude with charisma doing magic tricks. He had a divine existence before his birth. John did not state that Jesus was the God that they knew as Yahweh, because John 1:4 says "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father". The Word became flesh, not God became flesh.

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    acqsed12345 said: "The examples of John 4:19 and Acts 28:4 involve different grammatical structures. John 4:19 uses "προφήτης εἶ" (you are a prophet), where the predicate noun ("prophet") follows the verb and lacks an article."

    Again, this statement is wrong. Both John 4.19 & Acts 28.4 have the predicate noun without the article before the verb and subject just like John 1.1 as seen below. Verbs in bold:

    J 4.19, θεωρῶ ὅτι προφήτης εἶ σύ = I see that prophet are you

    Acts 28.4, Πάντως φονεύς ἐστιν ὁ ἄνθρωπος οὗτος = Surely, murderer is the man this

    J 1.1, και θεός ην ο λόγος = and god was the logos

    All three texts exhibit the same grammatical structure,i.e, anarthrous predicate noun before the verb and subject. If you still insist that the theological factor changes the grammatical structure in Jn 1.1 you are free to do so, but I suspect you will lose serious credibility among fellow posters.

    You seem to admire Wallace, Dixon & Harner, but all three argue against interpreting Jn 1.1c as definite as Colwell suggest. BTW, the opposite of definite is indefinite.

    At the same time you argue that the Coptic's indefinite rendering at Jn 1.1 has a qualitative meaning, you make it sound like the indefinite reading (a god) of some versions in the same verse cannot be ever understood in a qualitative sense. Sounds like double speak, doesn't it? Remember, Wallace labeled Jn 4.19 as indefinite-qualitative, a text which shares a similar grammatical structure to Jn 1.1. Furthermore, Dixon & Harner mentioned other texts sharing this concept.

    Over all, it's more important to give greater weight to John's understanding of the opening verse than to give the benefit of interpretation to men of a later era.

    John v. 2 adds: "He was in the beginning with God." Common sense has it that someone who is in the company of another cannot be one and the same person. Otherwise the "with" is misleading.

    John took great effort in writing his Gospel to help everyone get closer to God thru Christ. He concluded: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

    These words have no trinitarian overtones. It does indicate that Christ is not at the same level as God is. He is the Son of God. And the Son of God told the world that 'his Father was greater than him.' We still see Christ subject to God in Rev 1.1 decades later after his human submission experience on earth.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Rattigan350

    You suggest that the earliest Christian beliefs, as recorded in Acts, didn't include the deity of Jesus, pointing to passages where Jesus is distinct from God the Father, such as Stephen's vision of Jesus at God’s right hand (Acts 7:56) and Peter’s sermon (Acts 2), where God raises Jesus. However, this interpretation misunderstands the full theological picture, particularly how early Christians understood the relationship between Jesus and God.

    The claim that John’s Gospel, written 65 years after Jesus’ death, introduces new theology that contradicts Acts misunderstands early Christian Christology. The deity of Jesus is not invented later. While it’s true that different writings emphasize various aspects of Jesus’ identity, early Christian preaching, especially in Acts, reveals the early belief in the pre-existence and exaltation of Jesus. For example Acts 7:56 shows Jesus in a position of supreme authority at the right hand of God, a reference to Psalm 110, which is understood in early Christianity to affirm Jesus’ unique status alongside God. This doesn’t deny His deity but affirms His unique role in salvation history.

    The idea that John’s Prologue emphasizes only the pre-existence of the Word (Jesus) and not His deity also doesn’t hold. The term “Logos” and the opening of the Gospel (“the Word was God”) points directly to the fully divine nature of Christ, not merely His pre-existence. The distinction between the Father and the Son is consistent with Trinitarian theology, where Jesus is distinct in person but one in essence with God.

    It’s a mistake to say Acts denies Jesus’ deity. While Acts often emphasizes Jesus’ resurrection and the Father raising Him from the dead, this fits into the overall New Testament framework that sees Jesus as both fully divine and fully human. The resurrection doesn’t negate Jesus’ deity but shows His authority over life and death, affirming His divine power.

    The claim that “The Word became flesh” in John 1:14 means that only the Word, and not God, became flesh is also incorrect. The phrase doesn’t imply that the Word is separate from God; rather, it affirms that the divine Logos took on human nature in the person of Jesus Christ. This is the foundational doctrine of the Incarnation in Christian theology, where God became man.

    Early Christian writings, including Paul’s letters and hymns, already reflect a high Christology, acknowledging Jesus’ pre-existence and divine role in creation (see Philippians 2:6-11, Colossians 1:15-20). This isn’t an invention of later theology but a consistent witness across the New Testament, showing the early belief in Jesus' deity.

    In summary, the argument misinterprets both the texts of Acts and John, and misunderstands how early Christians understood Jesus as both distinct from the Father and yet fully divine, an understanding that becomes more explicit in John but is not a contradiction of earlier writings.

    @Wonderment

    You claim that John 1:1 shares the same grammatical structure as John 4:19 and Acts 28:4, where the predicate noun precedes the verb. However, in Koine Greek, the construction in John 1:1c, "theos en ho logos", involves a crucial difference: the anarthrous predicate nominative precedes the verb, which significantly alters its grammatical function. Colwell’s Rule demonstrates that an anarthrous predicate nominative placed before the verb typically emphasizes a qualitative sense rather than definiteness or indefiniteness. The context is also very important, as John 1:1 is found in the prologue of the Gospel, while the other examples are in everyday conversations. Furthermore, it is clear that from a prophet, an Israelite, etc. there are more, but there is only one God, and thus "Logos" can only be "theos" if and only if He is one God is with "the God" (i.e. the Fathere), since it is a monadic term.

    In the case of theos en ho logos ("the Word was God"), the absence of the article is not meant to suggest indefiniteness (i.e., "a god") but rather to emphasize the divine nature of the Word. This is a qualitative construction that underscores the Word’s full participation in divinity.

    You suggest that the Coptic rendering of "a god" in John 1:1 can be interpreted qualitatively, but this is a misunderstanding. In Coptic, as in Greek, the indefinite article does not automatically imply a qualitative sense, and the context here in John's Gospel points toward a qualitative rather than indefinite understanding of theos. The qualitative rendering emphasizes that the Logos fully shares in the divine nature, without implying that the Word is "a (lesser) god" among many.

    Your argument against Colwell’s Rule overlooks its continued relevance in Koine Greek syntax. Colwell’s Rule has been applied to John 1:1c precisely because of its specific construction. Many modern scholars, including Wallace and Harner, have emphasized the qualitative nature of theos in John 1:1c, affirming that it refers to the deity of the Word without confusing the Word with the Father. They reject both an indefinite reading ("a god") and a definite reading ("the God").

    You state that because the Word was "with" (the) God in John 1:2, the Word cannot be God. However, Trinitarian theology affirms that the Father and the Son are distinct persons who share the same divine essence. Being "with" God (the Father) does not imply that the Logos is a separate or lesser god. Instead, it reflects the personal distinction within the Godhead, while maintaining the full divinity of the Word.

    You argue that John’s Gospel does not indicate that Christ is at the same level as God. However, throughout John’s Gospel, Jesus is presented as possessing divine attributes (see John 1:3, John 5:23, John 8:58), and His identification as the "Son of God" in no way diminishes His full divinity. The term "Son of God" within the Johannine context emphasizes His unique relationship with the Father, not subordination in essence.

    In conclusion, the structure of John 1:1c and its theological context clearly point toward a qualitative reading that affirms the full divinity of the Logos. Attempts to translate it as "a god" misunderstand the Greek syntax and introduce theological confusion inconsistent with John’s monotheistic framework.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345 : Early Christian scribes, as evidenced by their use of nomina sacra, understood this dynamic [the relationship between the Father and the Son] and reverently applied the same sacred titles to both the Father and the Son.

    In my previous post I said I would give some thought to the fact that John 1:1 uses nomina sacra for both references to God. Surprisingly, there are only two papyri prior to Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which contain this verse, namely P66 (late second or early third century) and P75 (third century). In fact, only P75 contains the verse in full but we can assume that both references to God were treated as nomina sacra in both papyri. However, I noted in my earlier post that these two papyri in particular were quite liberal in applying nomina sacra, applying them to both the sacred and mundane. So I wondered whether these were also applied to "god" in Acts 28:6 (where the Maltese were saying Paul was "a god") and 2 Corinthians 4:4 (where the "god of this world" blinds the minds of the unbelievers). Unfortunately, none of the early papyri contain these two verses so I checked both Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. In both manuscripts nomina sacra are used for both verses, so it seems they were always used for "God" regardless of the context. So I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from the fact that they are used in John 1:1. Otherwise Satan must also be in the "dynamic relationship" you describe.

    So the nomina sacra do not provide any support for capitalizing "God" in English translations of John 1:1. Rather, as Francis Moloney explains (The Gospel of John,1998,p.35) :

    Although the traditional translation is "and the Word was God," there is a danger that this might lead the contemporary reader of the English text to collapse the Word and God into one: they are both God. The author has gone to considerable trouble to indicate that an identification between the Word and God is to be avoided.
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    That’s a great quote from Moloney, and the point appears to be spot on. Whatever the author of the gospel of John intended us to think about the Word, the one thing that is clear is that he is distinguished from God. Not merely distinguished from “God the Father”, but from “God”. In any case, when Bible writers use the phrase “God the Father” they appear to use the phrase synonymously and interchangeably with “God”. Later, when the Trinity doctrine was formulated, trinitarians retrospectively imposed a new definition on the “God the Father” to mean one person of the tri-personal deity. On top of that, in many verses that say simply “God”, they say it must mean “God the Father” under their trinitarian definition of that phrase. Needless to say, none of this is ever stated in the Bible because the Bible writers knew nothing about it. When they wrote “God” they meant God, and when John said “the Word was with God”, by every normal use of language he was clearly stating that the Word was distinguished from God.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Not merely distinguished from “God the Father”, but from “God”. In any case, when Bible writers use the phrase “God the Father” they appear to use the phrase synonymously and interchangeably with “God”.

    Philo's position. The God, (El Elyon, Most High, ὁ Θεός ὁ ὕψιστος) distinguished from Logos/God.

    I've been putting pieces together that I'd observed but never connected. Perhaps the merging of ancient traditions of El Shaddai and Yahweh was never complete. There seems to have always been some who identified Yahweh as a subordinate to the Most High. This persisted in some circles, then further developed into Christianity. 'Name theology' and 'Kabod' embodiment also understood then not as a break from the past but as a twist on it, or perhaps a rediscovery of it.

    IOW, in some corners and some texts Yahweh=The Great Angel, the Presence, the Name, the Logos. His Father THE God, Most High. I've run across this before, maybe another thread.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Earnest

    You mention that the liberal use of nomina sacra in the later manuscripts, even in reference to false gods, undermines the argument that these abbreviations provide theological weight in distinguishing the Father and the Son. However, this view overlooks the fact that early Christian scribes, when applying nomina sacra to Christ, were not merely using it out of convention but to signal reverence for Christ’s divine identity.

    Early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irenaeus all affirm the divine status of Christ. By the late second and early third centuries, when P66 and P75 were copied, there was already a well-established Christological tradition that recognized Jesus as fully divine. The consistent use of nomina sacra for both the Father and the Son, especially in such foundational texts as John 1:1, reflects this theological understanding. The fact that nomina sacra were also used in mundane contexts does not change the theological significance of their application to Christ in passages affirming His deity.

    Your argument that the use of nomina sacra (sacred abbreviations) in John 1:1 does not support the capitalization of "God" in English translations of the verse because of their usage in other contexts, such as in reference to "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4) or when the Maltese refer to Paul as "a god" (Acts 28:6), warrants a detailed response.

    You argue that the use of nomina sacra for both "God" and "the god of this world" implies that no special reverence or distinction was intended for these terms in the original manuscripts. However, we need to be careful about overstating the conclusions drawn from later manuscripts like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. As I pointed out, these were written after the Edict of Milan (313 AD), when scribal practices had changed, and mass copying of texts became more common. This could indeed result in the widespread use of nomina sacra even for terms like "the god of this world," but it doesn't necessarily reflect the theological weight given to those terms in earlier, more controlled contexts.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 is missing from Papyrus 46 for 2 Corinthians 4:4, that portion of the manuscript is damaged, and P46 is the oldest manuscript of 2Cor, if it also contained nomen sacrum there, it would weaken my argument, but unfortunately we cannot verify this. So we cannot definitively argue that the early church applied nomina sacra equally for all instances of "God" or "god," especially in reference to Satan. While later manuscripts show uniformity in this practice, we cannot assume that earlier scribes followed the same convention in all instances.

    In any case, even if nomina sacra were used to describe "the god of this world" in later manuscripts, this would be irrelevant to John 1:1, where the theological context clearly dictates a distinction. The term "God" in John 1:1 refers to the eternal, omnipotent Creator, whereas in 2 Corinthians 4:4, "the god of this world" refers to a false or deceptive power (Satan) who blinds unbelievers. The use of nomina sacra does not equate the status of these two figures, and theological nuance remains key in interpretation.

    John 1:1 presents a profound theological truth, wherein the Logos (the Word) is not only "with God" but "was God" (theos en ho logos). The use of nomina sacra in early manuscripts underscores the sacred nature of the subject, but it does not diminish the distinction or unity in the Godhead that John emphasizes. While later scribal conventions may have applied nomina sacra to both divine and mundane references to "god," the context of John 1:1 cannot be ignored. The relationship between the Father and the Logos is presented in a manner that affirms both unity and distinction within the Godhead—a central element of Trinitarian theology.

    Francis Moloney’s comment that “an identification between the Word and God is to be avoided” is, in a sense, correct, but only when it is understood that John is presenting both distinction (the Logos is pros ton Theon, with [the] God) and unity (the Logos is theos, God). This is the foundational understanding of the Trinity. The Logos shares in the divine essence (not merely a "god" among many), yet is distinct in personhood from the Father.

    While Moloney is correct to caution against collapsing the distinct persons of the Godhead, the absence of the article here does not mean the Logos is anything less than fully divine. As many scholars have pointed out, the predicate position of theos here emphasizes the quality of the Word rather than His identity with the Father. In other words, John is not saying that the Word is the same person as the Father, but that the Word shares the divine nature.

    Grammatically, the lack of the article before theos prevents a misunderstanding that the Word is numerically identical to the Father (ton theon), but it also strongly affirms that the Word possesses the same divine nature. This is why Trinitarian theology holds that the Father and the Son are distinct persons who share one divine essence. Therefore, modern English translations that capitalize "God" in John 1:1c are doing so to reflect the divine quality that the original Greek grammar conveys.

    The argument that nomina sacra support an equal theological status for both the Father and lesser "gods" (like Satan or pagan deities) misunderstands the purpose of these sacred abbreviations. The nomina sacra were employed as markers of reverence, not merely of equality. They highlighted terms of theological significance, but the context and content of the passage determined the meaning and application of those terms. In John 1:1, the use of nomina sacra aligns with the passage’s affirmation of Christ’s divine nature, while in 2 Corinthians 4:4, the reference to the "god of this world" uses nomina sacra to mark significance but does not imply equality with the true God.

    In conclusion, the use of nomina sacra in manuscripts like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus for various terms like "God" or "god" does not negate the distinct theological affirmation of Jesus' deity in John 1:1. The textual tradition and the broader theological context both support the understanding that the Logos is fully divine, partaking in the essence of God, while maintaining distinction from the Father. This is in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, not in contradiction to it. The evidence of nomina sacra does not undermine the understanding of Christ's deity, but rather confirms the sacred regard for terms referring to God in various contexts.

    @slimboyfat

    Francis Moloney's interpretation of John 1:1, while respected in academic discussions, can be misused or misunderstood in broader theological debates. It’s true that John 1:1 distinguishes between the Word and God in the phrase "the Word was with [the] God" (Greek: pros ton theon). This distinction emphasizes the relationship between the Word (identified as Jesus Christ in John 1:14) and God. However, the second part of the verse—"and the Word was God" (Greek: kai theos ēn ho logos)—equally affirms the Word's divine nature. The key point is that John is presenting the Word as fully divine, but distinct in person from God the Father.

    In the Greek text, the lack of the definite article before "God" (theos) in the second clause (kai theos ēn ho logos) indicates that the Word shares in the divine essence but is not the same person as the Father. This is an essential nuance in Trinitarian theology: the Father and the Word (the Son) are distinct persons, but they share the same divine essence.

    The phrase “the Word was God” directly supports the full divinity of the Word, not a mere association or divine quality. The Word is not presented as a separate lesser deity or being, but rather as fully God, co-existing eternally with the Father. This aligns with traditional Christian teaching that the Father, Son (the Word), and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but one in essence (the doctrine of the Trinity).

    The argument that the Bible writers did not know of the Trinity and that Trinitarians retroactively imposed a new definition on terms like "God the Father" ignores the development of theological understanding over time. The New Testament writers often used terms like "God" and "Father" with specific references in mind. For example, when the term "God" is used without further specification, it often refers to God the Father, but this does not deny the deity of the Son or the Holy Spirit.

    John 1:1, for example, does not collapse the identity of the Word into the Father but affirms the deity of the Word while maintaining the personal distinction. This distinction is foundational for the later articulation of the Trinity doctrine, but it is grounded in the biblical text itself. The New Testament is filled with passages that point to the deity of Christ (John 20:28, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8), alongside the deity of the Father and the Spirit (Acts 5:3-4).

    John's Gospel clearly distinguishes the Word from God the Father, but this distinction does not imply that the Word is not God. It affirms the coexistence and unity of the Word with the Father, a unity that is explained by the doctrine of the Trinity. John 1:1 maintains a careful balance: the Word is distinct in person from the Father (hence, "with [the] God") but fully shares in the divine nature (hence, "was God").

    When you argue that "God" means only the Father, and therefore, the Word is excluded from deity, you overlook the full scope of biblical revelation. John consistently portrays Jesus not only as distinct from the Father but also as fully divine. For example:

    • John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."
    • John 20:28: "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!'"
    • Colossians 1:19: "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."

    The claim that the Trinity is “a later imposition” on Scripture is also unfounded. The Church Fathers did not invent the Trinity doctrine out of thin air; rather, they sought to systematize and articulate what was already present in Scripture. The term "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, but the reality it describes—the triune nature of God—is clearly reflected in the New Testament. Early Christians, including the Apostles, were confronted with the reality of Jesus' deity, the Father’s deity, and the presence of the Holy Spirit, leading them to formulate the doctrine over time. Moreover, the Bible contains many passages where all three persons of the Trinity are presented in unity:

    • Matthew 28:19: "Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
    • 2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

    These passages support the co-equality and co-eternality of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are foundational to the doctrine of the Trinity.

    You fail to account for the biblical evidence that supports both the distinction of persons within the Godhead and the shared divine nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. John 1:1 does not deny the deity of the Word but affirms it, while maintaining a personal distinction from the Father. The Trinity doctrine is not "a later imposition" but a faithful interpretation of the biblical revelation of God as triune.

    @peacefulpete

    Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher, did indeed distinguish between "The Most High God" (El Elyon) and the "Logos," which he viewed as an intermediary figure. However, Philo’s conception of the Logos is heavily influenced by Greek philosophical categories and is not equivalent to the Christian understanding of the Logos (Word) as presented in the New Testament, particularly in John 1:1–14. While Philo saw the Logos as a created intermediary between God and the world, Christianity, particularly from the time of the Nicene Creed, has firmly rejected this subordinationist view.

    John 1:1 states unequivocally, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse does not present the Logos (Jesus) as a lesser deity or intermediary but rather as fully and eternally divine. The Nicene Creed affirms that the Son is "consubstantial" (homoousios) with the Father, meaning of the same essence. Thus, Philo's view of the Logos is incompatible with Christian orthodoxy.

    The claim that "God the Father" and "God" are synonymous and interchangeable in Scripture is an oversimplification that overlooks the Trinitarian context of the New Testament. While it is true that in many instances "God" refers to the Father (e.g., 1 Corinthians 8:6), this does not negate the fact that the Son and the Holy Spirit are equally "God" in Christian theology. The early Church Fathers, particularly at Nicaea, were clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, yet they share the same divine nature.

    Matthew 28:19 commands baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," putting the three persons on equal footing. The Nicene Creed reflects this understanding by stating that the Son is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father." This means that the Son is not a separate or lesser god, but shares in the fullness of deity with the Father.

    The idea that some ancient traditions viewed Yahweh as subordinate to El Elyon (The Most High) is rooted in speculative interpretations of early Hebrew texts. This theory often emerges from a misunderstanding of passages like Deuteronomy 32:8-9, where Yahweh is seen as receiving his inheritance from the Most High. However, within the broader biblical canon, especially in the prophetic and wisdom literature, Yahweh is clearly identified as the Most High God, Creator, and Sovereign of all (see Isaiah 45:5-7, Psalm 83:18).

    The New Testament explicitly identifies Jesus with Yahweh. For example, Philippians 2:9-11 quotes Isaiah 45:23, a passage about Yahweh, and applies it directly to Jesus. This demonstrates that Jesus, the Son, is fully and completely identified with the God of Israel, who is Yahweh, the one true God.

    The Nicene Creed formalized the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. The creed was not an innovation but a formal recognition of what the early Church had always believed: that Jesus, the Logos, is fully God, as is the Holy Spirit, and that the three persons are united in one divine essence. Any interpretation that tries to subordinate Jesus or the Holy Spirit to the Father or present them as separate gods contradicts this fundamental doctrine. The creed states:

    "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth... And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds... very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father..."

    This confession affirms that the Son is of the same divine essence as the Father, not a created being or inferior entity. While Philo's philosophical ideas about the Logos are historically interesting, they do not align with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity as revealed in Scripture and affirmed by the Nicene Creed. The Bible, particularly in the New Testament, makes clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all fully God, distinct in personhood but united in essence. The idea that Yahweh is a "subordinate" to El Elyon or that Jesus is a lesser deity is inconsistent with the clear biblical testimony and the Church's historic understanding of the nature of God.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher, did indeed distinguish between "The Most High God" (El Elyon) and the "Logos," which he viewed as an intermediary figure.

    Correct

    However, Philo’s conception of the Logos is heavily influenced by Greek philosophical categories and is not equivalent to the Christian understanding of the Logos...

    Not correct. Philo's Logos was both God and an intermediary just as the writer of Gospel John's was.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @peacefulpete

    While it’s true that Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher, introduced the concept of the Logos as an intermediary, the assertion that Philo’s Logos is equivalent to the Christian Logos in the Gospel of John is an oversimplification and misrepresentation of the theological distinctions between the two. Philo’s Logos is rooted in Hellenistic thought, influenced by Platonic and Stoic philosophy. In Philo's system, the Logos serves as an intermediary between the transcendent God (whom Philo calls the Most High God or El Elyon) and the created world. However, Philo’s Logos was not viewed as a personal being, but more as an abstract principle or divine force that represents the rational order and mediation of God’s will in creation. It is an emanation or a bridge between the unknowable God and the material world.

    Philo’s Logos was not God in the personal sense but rather a divine agent or intermediary who was a reflection or shadow of the divine. He was inferior to the Most High God and functioned more like an impersonal aspect or an agent that emanated from God, which is far from the Christian understanding of the full divinity of the Logos in John’s Gospel.

    In contrast, the Gospel of John presents a Logos that is fully divine and personal. John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This is a clear affirmation of the divinity of the Logos. The Logos is not an emanation or abstract intermediary but is identified as God Himself. John’s Logos is not an impersonal force but a personal being who became incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”).

    This personal nature of the Logos in Christianity is crucial: Jesus Christ, the Logos, is co-eternal with the Father, co-equal in essence, and possesses full divinity. The Gospel of John affirms the Logos as not merely an agent of God but God Himself, participating in the divine essence without being separate or subordinate in essence, which differs from Philo’s more abstract, non-personalized concept.

    Philo’s Logos cannot be equated with John’s Logos because of the fundamental difference in divine identity. In Philo’s writings, the Logos is never described as sharing in the full essence of God. Philo’s Logos mediates between the unknowable God and creation but is distinctly not the same as the Most High God (El Elyon). John’s Logos, however, is clearly declared to be both with God and God Himself. This is a radical departure from Philo’s concept of an intermediary figure.

    The doctrine of the incarnation—God becoming man—is foreign to Philo’s understanding of the Logos. In John 1:14, the Logos becomes flesh and dwells among us, which is central to Christian belief. Philo would have found the idea of God becoming incarnate incomprehensible and incompatible with his philosophical framework. For Philo, the Logos did not become human; it remained a distant mediator, a non-personal force that facilitated the interaction between God and the material world.

    In conclusion, while Philo’s Logos and John’s Logos share some similarities in the intermediary role, their differences are far more significant. Philo’s Logos is an abstract principle or divine agent that is clearly inferior to God, while the Christian Logos in the Gospel of John is fully divine, personal, and one with God in essence. The identification of the Logos with Jesus Christ as the incarnate Word is a distinctive Christian teaching that goes beyond anything Philo ever envisioned. Therefore, equating Philo’s Logos with the Christian Logos misrepresents both the philosophical and theological context of these two vastly different conceptions.

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