How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat 164 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    peacefulpete : If you read a little further, he makes clear he understands that Angel is the "God of Abraham" but not the Maker/Father of all things (aka the Most High)

    Yes. My primary reason for quoting Justin was to show that when he read John 1:1, he understood that "the Word was god" referred to "another god" subject to ton theon, the Maker of all things.

    Quite clearly, when Justin was writing (second century), they had not yet received the clarification that we do not take the type-antitype approach except where the Bible provides a clear basis for doing so. So they saw Jesus wherever God intervened in some way. They thought he was one of the three "men" that visited Abraham at Mamre shortly before the destruction of Sodom, the angel who wrestled with Jacob, the voice from the burning bush which spoke to Moses, "the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night" which led the Israelites through the wilderness, the fourth man in the burning fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and so on. As you note he was prefigured by Joshua (Greek/Latin : Jesus) and was even the very name of God.

    Justin clearly understands this. He says (chapter 59) :

    Permit me, further, to show you from the book of Exodus how this same one, who is also an angel (kai angelos), and a god (kai theos), and a lord (kai kurios), and a man (kai aner) and a human (kai anthropos), and who appeared to Abraham and Isaac, appeared in a flame of fire from the bush, and conversed with Moses.

    But he always made clear, as you note, that he was not the God "above whom there is no other god".

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    The early Christians, including Paul and John, did not see themselves as departing from monotheism but as expanding the understanding of God's nature to include the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ, as fully God.

    I agree. That was also true of Philo, Justin and the writer of the Ascension of Isaiah. They were adamant that Logos (or any of the names used) was an emanation of the Most High not a God apart or rival God.

    Justin as a trained philosopher like Philo understood the provenance of these concepts, he had no problem with that, why do you? I think it is interesting his choice to use of Socratic dialogue, a literary mouthpiece (Trypho) to deliver his doctrinal thesis.

    Since you expanded a smidge on the topic, I'll throw the door open and say the so-called Gnostic branches of what became called 'Christianity', all regarded themselves as monotheistic. They were attracted to the concept of emanations of The God as explanations for many things including the impermanence of the physical world. Some used passages that equated Yahweh with a second power, this one however did not resist the temptation to seek worship and so created an imperfect world, something not intended by the Most High. They drew from the same OT sources and 2nd Temple traditions as those who limited the emanations to just 2, (Logos and Holy Spirit).

    You reference Philo's concept of the Logos as a bedrock for early Christian Christology, suggesting that the belief in a "second power" or intermediary influenced Christian beliefs about Christ.

    My wording was unclear, I meant to say that his/their method of interpretation of passages featuring the second power concept was a bedrock upon which later writers like Paul and the writer of John stood.

    While it is true that Philo's Logos concept had some influence on early Christian thought, especially in the Gospel of John, the Christian understanding of the Logos differs significantly from Philo's. Philo's Logos is an abstract, intermediary principle through which God interacts with the world, but it is not fully personal or incarnate in the way that Christ is presented in the New Testament....The inclusion of mundane details, such as the names of Jesus' family members (e.g., James, His brother) and his interactions with well-known historical figures, points to the Gospel writers’ intention to root their accounts in historical reality.

    You must realize that is circular reasoning. You declare the Gospel to be different from works like the Bacchae because you see the characters and story to be different. I don't. That is the issue in discussion. Since we have touched on the Bacchae, note that Dionysius plays two roles, one as a lowly human and one role off set as a god. The characters all have names and family that are named. Their hometowns (real) and nationalities (real) are included. What identifies the story as a myth/dramatization are the supernatural aspects, Dionysus making it thunder for example.

    Is it really outrageous to believe the writer of a play later transcribed as the Gospel Mark, ought to be regarded as myth/dramatization for the same reasons?

    Of course a generation or three later were told the story was real and not allegory. That was also true for many lesser educated Greeks, who mistook the allegories as more than that.

  • scholar
    scholar

    aqwswed12345

    Your objection rests on the claim that the anarthrous "theos" (without a definite article) in John 1:1c is qualitative, and you emphasize that the New World Translation (NWT) reflects this understanding correctly by rendering it as "a god." You also argue that calling the Word "divine" is merely describing a quality of the Word rather than identifying Him as God.

    -----

    Note what one notable Catholic commentary by an Australian Catholic theologian says regarding the translation and commentary of John1:1:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was turned toward God, and what God was the Word also was"

    'This verse concludes with a description of the consequences of the intense intimacy between the Word and God. Although the traditional translation is "and the Word was God", there is a danger that this might lead the contemporary reader of the English text to collapse the Word and God into one: they are both God. The author has gone to considerable trouble to indicate that an identification between the Word and God is to be avoided. The Greek sentence (kai theos en ho logos) places the complement (theos:God) before 'to be' and does not give it an article. It is extremely difficult to catch this nuance in English , but the author avoids saying that the Word and God were one and the same thing. The translation 'what God was the Word also was' indicates that the Word and God retain their uniqueness, despite their oneness that flows from their inimacy' - Sacra Pagina, The Gospel of John , Francis J. Moloney, SDB,1998, pp.33,35, The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minnesota,

    Such difficulty is nicely resolved by the NWT's rendering for the Anarthrous Nominative predicative noun-theos in John 1:1 as the indefinite, qualitative ' a god' or 'divine'.

    -----

    You accuse Catholic theologians of being influenced by Neo-Platonism, suggesting that this influence is what drives their theological conclusions. However, this is a misrepresentation of Church doctrine. The affirmation of the Word's full divinity in John 1:1c is rooted in the biblical and historical understanding of the Christian faith, long predating Neo-Platonism. While some philosophical terms were later adopted to clarify the nature of the Trinity, the core belief that the Word is fully divine (not "a god") comes from the apostolic teaching itself.

    Absolutely not! Trinitarianism is rooted in Neo-Platonism which predates Nicea and was the current philosophical doctrine at that time which influenced some of the Church Fathers. You acknowledge this by the fact that there was an adoption of many Greek and Latin terms from Greek philosophy later incorporated in Church doctrine or theology prior to and after Nicea.

    scholar JW

    University of Sydney

    Department of Religion



  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Quite clearly, when Justin was writing (second century), they had not yet received the clarification that we do not take the type-antitype approach except where the Bible provides a clear basis for doing so.

    I'm guessing you said that tongue in cheek. lol.

    Yes. My primary reason for quoting Justin was to show that when he read John 1:1, he understood that "the Word was god" referred to "another god" subject to ton theon, the Maker of all things.

    Justin never mentions the Gospel John or for that matter any Gospel. (apart from an interpolation). He, like the writer of John, draws from a deep tradition of second power theology.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Trinitarianism Christianity is rooted in Neo-Platonism which predates Nicaea and was the current philosophical doctrine at that time which influenced some of the Church Fathers Paul and the writer of John. You acknowledge this by the fact that there was an adoption of many Greek and Latin terms from Greek philosophy later incorporated in Church doctrine or theology prior to and after Nicaea.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Earnest

    Your argument, based on the writings of Justin Martyr, hinges on the misrepresentation that Justin saw Christ merely as "another god" or a created angelic being. However, Justin's own writings, when considered in full context, contradict this assertion, showing that Justin recognized Jesus Christ as the fully divine Son of God, who was not merely a created being, but who shares in the divine nature. The claim that Justin referred to Jesus as "another god" or "an angel" is based on a misunderstanding of his use of these terms. Justin uses the terms "angel" and "apostle" to describe Jesus not in the sense of being a mere angelic or subordinate being, but to highlight his role as the messenger (Greek: angelos simply means "messenger") and representative of God. Justin explicitly clarifies that Jesus is the Son of God, and in several passages, he affirms that the Son is divine. In First Apology, Chapter 63, Justin writes:

    "The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son."

    Here, Justin is clear that the "Angel" who spoke to Moses was not a mere created being but the Son of God, who is also God. The term "angel" here does not imply an ontological subordination or creation but is used to denote Jesus' role as a divine messenger. Justin was engaging with Jewish critiques that identified the Father as the one speaking to Moses and correcting them by stating it was actually the pre-incarnate Christ who interacted with humanity in these Old Testament theophanies.

    Justin makes it explicit that Jesus is divine and distinguishes him from mere angels or created beings. In Dialogue with Trypho, Justin identifies Jesus as the "only-begotten Son of the Father" and calls Him God: "The first-begotten Word of God, is even God" (First Apology, Chapter 63). This shows that Justin held a Trinitarian view, where the Father and the Son are distinct persons, but both are fully divine. This is far from the subordinationist or Arian-like theology that some try to project onto Justin.

    Moreover, Justin’s theology was clearly progressing toward the Trinitarian theology formalized later. His understanding of Christ as fully divine refutes any suggestion that Justin believed Jesus to be a lesser, created god. He argues that the Son is God alongside the Father but distinct in personhood. This demonstrates a high Christology, not a belief in a "created" Christ as the JWs often claim.

    The Watchtower Society often quotes early Church Fathers selectively, giving the impression that these figures supported Arian or subordinationist views, but this is a distortion of their teachings. As shown in the excerpt from Dialogue with Trypho and First Apology, Justin explicitly acknowledges Jesus as God, a view entirely incompatible with Arianism or the theology of the JWs. In fact, Justin argues that Jesus was worshipped alongside the Father, indicating that he did not view Jesus as a mere creature but as worthy of divine worship.

    Justin's writings were aimed at refuting the Jewish view that denied the deity of the Son. He was arguing that Jesus, the Word of God, had always been present and active in the Old Testament as the one who appeared to figures like Moses. To interpret Justin’s statements about the Son as supporting Arianism or a lower Christology is to ignore the very purpose of his argument: to defend the deity of Christ against Jewish critiques.

    In conclusion, Justin Martyr’s writings affirm that Jesus Christ is fully divine, not a mere created angel or subordinate god. While Justin uses the term "angel" (messenger), this term describes Jesus’ role in delivering the message of God, not his nature. Justin’s references to Jesus being "God" and his role in theophanies such as the burning bush underscore his belief that Jesus was indeed God, not a lesser being. The argument that Justin believed Jesus was "another god" or a created angel is not supported by the full context of his writings.

    Thus, it is incorrect to claim that Justin's view aligns with Arian theology or the theology of the JWs. Justin recognized the pre-existent, divine nature of Christ and argued for his eternal relationship with the Father.

    @peacefulpete

    You suggest that Philo, Justin Martyr, and the writer of the Ascension of Isaiah held a belief in the Logos as an "emanation" of the Most High, and that this is fundamentally different from the Christian understanding of the Logos as fully God. However, this is a misunderstanding of early Christian theology. Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher, did indeed speak of the Logos as a kind of intermediary through which God interacts with the world. For Philo, the Logos was an abstract principle, a divine intermediary that did not possess full personhood or equality with God. Philo’s understanding of the Logos is more akin to a philosophical bridge between the transcendent God and the material world. It was not personal, and it certainly was not incarnate.

    The Christian concept of the Logos, particularly in the Gospel of John (John 1:1-3, 14), is fundamentally different. John affirms that the Logos is not merely an emanation or intermediary, but fully personal and fully divine. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1). This is not an emanation in the Neoplatonic sense but an ontological statement about the divine nature of Christ. Moreover, John emphasizes the incarnation"The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)—which is entirely absent from Philo’s conception. The Logos in Christianity is not an abstract intermediary; it is the eternal Son of God who took on human nature without ceasing to be fully divine.

    While Justin Martyr uses the language of the Logos and defends the pre-existence of Christ, he does not depict the Logos as a mere emanation or lower divine being. In his Dialogue with Trypho, Justin affirms that the Logos is eternal, generated by the Father, and shares the same divine essence (οὐσία) as the Father. Justin’s analogy of fire from fire is crucial: just as one flame kindled from another does not diminish the original, so the Logos, eternally begotten from the Father, shares the same divine nature without being a separate or lesser deity. Justin’s understanding aligns with what later became formalized in the Nicene Creed, even though the specific term "Trinity" was not yet in use.

    The claim that Philo’s Logos is fundamentally similar to the Christian Logos does not hold. While early Christian writers, including John and Justin, were influenced by Hellenistic thought, they significantly reinterpreted the concept of Logos in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    You mention that Gnostic branches of Christianity regarded themselves as monotheistic and that they were attracted to the concept of divine emanations. It’s important to differentiate mainstream Christian theology from Gnosticism, which was ultimately rejected by the early Church as heretical. Gnostic systems indeed posited multiple emanations (often referred to as aeons) from a singular divine source. These emanations were not seen as co-equal with the source but were increasingly imperfect as they descended. In many Gnostic systems, the material world was viewed as corrupt or flawed, created by a lesser, malevolent being (often identified with the God of the Old Testament), and salvation involved escaping the material world.

    Mainstream Christianity, as expressed in the New Testament, holds to a strict monotheism inherited from Judaism. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not emanations in a Gnostic sense, but three distinct persons who share one divine essence. The early Christians rejected Gnostic dualism and the notion that the material world is inherently evil. The incarnation—God becoming flesh in the person of Jesus—was a direct challenge to Gnostic beliefs.

    While Gnosticism drew from certain Jewish and Hellenistic traditions, it fundamentally diverged from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. The Christian concept of the Trinity—one God in three persons—is not an emanationist framework but a relational understanding of the one God revealed in Scripture.

    You draw a comparison between the Gospel of Mark and Greek mythological dramas like The Bacchae, suggesting that the Gospel of Mark could be a myth or dramatization. This is a misunderstanding of the genre and intent of the Gospel writers. The Gospels, particularly Mark, are written as historical narratives, not mythological allegories. They include concrete references to historical figures like Pontius Pilate, Herod Antipas, and Caiaphas, and they locate events in real places such as Jerusalem and Galilee. These are not the hallmarks of mythological literature but of historical narrative. While the Gospels certainly convey theological meaning, they are rooted in historical claims about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

    Unlike mythological stories like The Bacchae, which are clearly framed as allegory or symbolic drama, the Gospels present themselves as eyewitness testimony to real events. The early Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus was not based on allegory but on the conviction that Jesus physically rose from the dead, as seen by many witnesses (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). This is a claim about historical reality, not myth.

    Your suggestion that the Gospels could be myths like The Bacchae is undermined by the fact that early Christians did not treat their texts as mythological but as reliable testimonies to historical events. The early Church, including figures like Justin Martyr, vigorously defended the historical reality of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection against pagan critiques.

    You argue that Christianity is rooted in Neo-Platonism and that figures like Paul and the writer of John were influenced by this philosophical tradition. While it is true that early Christian thinkers engaged with Greek philosophy, it is misleading to claim that Christianity is rooted in Neo-Platonism. Neo-Platonism, particularly as developed by Plotinus (3rd century), posited a single, transcendent One from whom all things emanate. However, Christianity does not present God as an impersonal force or as a being from whom the world emanates in a hierarchical chain. Instead, Christian theology teaches that God is personal and relational, that He created the world ex nihilo (out of nothing), and that He entered into history through the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

    Early Christian thinkers like Justin, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen did engage with Greek philosophical ideas, but they did so critically, adapting certain concepts while rejecting others. For instance, while they borrowed the language of "Logos" from Greek philosophy, they redefined it in light of the revelation of Christ. The Logos in Christian theology is not an impersonal principle but the second person of the Trinity, eternally begotten of the Father.

    While Greek philosophy influenced the intellectual framework of the early Church, the core beliefs of Christianity—creation, incarnation, and resurrection—are profoundly different from Neo-Platonic thought. Christianity is rooted in the historical revelation of God in Jesus Christ, not in the speculative metaphysics of Greek philosophy.

    In conclusion, your argument suggests a continuity between Hellenistic philosophical concepts and early Christian theology, but it overlooks the ways in which Christianity fundamentally reinterpreted these concepts in light of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity, far from being an emanationist or Gnostic system, is a monotheistic understanding of one God in three persons. This is not rooted in Neo-Platonism or Greek myth but in the revelation of God through Christ, as witnessed by the apostles and early Church.

    @scholar

    Your argument relies heavily on a misunderstanding of what the qualitative force of "theos" means in John 1:1c. The commentary you cited from Sacra Pagina acknowledges that the qualitative "theos" describes the nature of the Word—“what God was, the Word also was.” This means that John is affirming that the Word shares fully in the divine nature of God, but not confusing the Word with the Father. The NWT rendering "a god" misinterprets this qualitative force by suggesting a distinction in divinity between the Word and the Father. The NWT's translation implies a secondary, lesser deity, which is not what the qualitative meaning entails. If the Word possesses the nature of God, then the rendering "a god" diminishes this very nature by introducing a subordinationist framework inconsistent with John's intent.

    The NWT introduces a theologically problematic reading by translating "theos" as "a god," suggesting the existence of multiple gods, which contradicts the monotheism presented in John and throughout the Bible (e.g., Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43:10). The qualitative force means that the Word possesses the very nature of God, not as a second or lesser god, but fully participating in God's divine essence. Trinitarianism holds that the Father and the Word (Son) share the same divine nature without being identical persons, which avoids the confusion that the NWT translation introduces.

    The claim that Trinitarianism is “rooted” in Neo-Platonism oversimplifies the development of Christian theology. While some Church Fathers used philosophical terminology to articulate their doctrines, the core concepts of the Trinity are rooted in Scripture and the early Church’s understanding of Jesus' divine identity. The idea that Trinitarian theology simply “adopted” Neo-Platonism ignores the biblical evidence for Christ's deity found in texts like John 1:1, Philippians 2:6-11, and Colossians 1:15-20. Moreover, the Nicene Creed, which affirmed the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father, was not simply a product of Greek philosophy, but of theological debates that sought to remain faithful to the apostolic tradition.

    The qualitative rendering, as supported by scholars such as Daniel B. Wallace, emphasizes the divine nature of the Word without introducing henotheism. The NWT's translation "a god" distorts the meaning by suggesting that the Word is not fully God but a lesser divine being. This interpretation is inconsistent with the broader context of John’s Gospel, which consistently affirms the full divinity of the Word (John 1:3, John 1:18) and aligns with the monotheistic faith of Israel.

    In conclusion, the NWT translation "a god" misrepresents the qualitative nature of "theos" in John 1:1c by introducing theological confusion and contradicting the monotheistic message of both the Old and New Testaments. The traditional rendering, “the Word was God,” is the most accurate and consistent translation that preserves the full divinity of the Word.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I wonder how you explain away this passage from Justin Martyr. The obvious conclusion is that Justin’s views are incompatible with the later Trinity doctrine, and compatible with JW view that Jesus is an angel and was created by God, but I guess you have a way of neutralising the straightforward meaning here?

    Hence are we called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from all impurity. But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught. First Apology 6
  • LV101
    LV101

    Was the non-trinity belief handed down to JWs (Russell) via 2nd Day Adventism/England? I've no issue with it but curious. Seventh Day Adventists now promote the trinity but not always the case.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    peacefulpete : Justin never mentions the Gospel John or for that matter any Gospel. (apart from an interpolation). He, like the writer of John, draws from a deep tradition of second power theology.

    He doesn't mention the Gospel of John. I thought he did as I read an article some time ago on Christians According to Second Century Philosophers, but I see I was wrong.

    Having looked into it a bit further, I suggest it is probable he knew of the gospel because, firstly, Justin lived in Ephesus during his Dialogue with Trypho which was traditionally John's former residence. Further, Justin was the teacher and mentor of Tatian, who produced a harmony of the four gospels known as the Diatessaron. But, primarily, his Logos Christology and his reference to monogenes (only-begotten), "he was monogenes to the Father of all things ... as we have learned from the memoirs". (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 105) suggests he had access to the Prologue of John, which probably existed independently amongst Christians before the gospel gained widespread acceptance.

    But even if he did not, my point remains that Justin had no problem with the concept of "another god", "a second god", who was not the God "above whom there is no other god".

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    LV101 : Was the non-trinity belief handed down to JWs (Russell) via 2nd Day Adventism/England?

    One of the most thorough publications on the early history of JWs, A Separate Identity, Volume 2, by Schulz and Vienne (who was the original poster known as Vienne and the mother of Annie, the current incumbent) says (p.xiv) :

    [Russell's] rejection of the Trinity connects directly to the Colonial Era and early Republic Era belief of non-Trinitarian Congregational churches in New England and anti-Trinitarian agitation among British clergy...

    Samuel Clarke's Boyle lecture on the Trinity found a place in American libraries; Priestley's multivolume work on the Trinity was circulated in America ... In America, in the aftermath of the Great Awakening, many of those influenced by it rejected Trinitarian doctrine, some becoming Socinian and others adopted Sebalianism [sic] or Arianism. New Light rejection of Trinitarianism was still an issue in the 1820s, and the issue persisted into the 1840s. Grew and Storrs both rejected the Trinity. We cannot suggest that Russell derived his Subordination doctrine (a non-Trinitarian belief system similar to Arianism) from Adventism. When some Adventists entered the discussion, they did so as part of a larger trend.

    The Proclaimers book (p.44) also lists truth lovers throughout the centuries, such as Thomas Emlyn (1663-c.1741), who

    accepted the Bible as God's Word and rejected the Trinity. Henry Grew (1781-1862) and George Storrs (1796-1879) not only accepted the Bible and rejected the Trinity but also expressed appreciation for the ransom sacrifice of Christ.

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