by Tyler 83 Replies latest watchtower bible
Well what about when Herod killed all the male children under a certain age? Aren't the secular references to that proof that Christ existed? I mean man, what a horrible slaughter!
That is a good point Sixofnine. Actualy there is no evidence for the said slaughter. Yes you'd think there would be for such a horid crime, but nothing, zip, nill. Goes toward the idea that it was all made up.
Gumby, have you considered that perhaps the myth sites are not being honest and are trying to dupe people also?
And what would be their purpose hooberous? What do they GAIN by telling people these things?
For this to be true......all negative writings would have to be colaberated from a single source and mimicked by other writers.That is not the case. Critics and scholars who write material have not ALL been influenced by a group or a man. Most of what they write is based on fact.........historical record, and findings.
Much of what is on these sights can be found in any encyclopdia, or books dealing with ancient history and beliefs......therefore.....not bogus. You hooberous, have looked at these sights and my hat is off to you for having the guts to go that far. How you cannot see the parallels between the pagans and the christians is beyond me. Oh well.....we all see things different I suppose and that itself seems odd to me when the same evidence is produced to the same individual.
Gumby
Did Christianity have a motive do you suppose?
Gumby
Well what about when Herod killed all the male children under a certain age? Aren't the secular references to that proof that Christ existed? I mean man, what a horrible slaughter!
That actually is a very good point, six. I find it very strange however that such a horid action was never recorded. Josephes spent a lot of time writing about the attrocities of Herod, yet never even once made a reference to this, Why? To me and I'm sure the people of that time it would have been one of the worst things that could have been done to the people, yet not a single reference, as well as phio and others that lived during that time made no mention of them. Even the earthquake and mystical eclipse have no mention from that time period, however there are those with a christian bias from the second century that say it happened, but I think it's a bit late to say they happened a century later.
Seedy
Oh and Hoberous, you gave no "eyewittness" to the crucifiction of Jesus, you gave references to people who lived or wrote 60 years or more later. You use the bible as a source of authority, yet the bible cannot be used in this because it is not known who wrote books or even truly when. If it was used in a court of Law it would have to be thrown out because it's source cannot be proven with accuracy and fact, it is shrouded with Questions and doubts.
Seedy
I have shroud's with mysterious stains depicting a bearded man in his 30's Also several viles of holy water with splinters obtained from the very 'cross' itself.
Also there is a little girl that lives down the street, who speaks 'Mary the mother of Jesus' and she has assured me that my artifacts are genuine.
Shall I offer them on e-bay?
Danny
E-bay?
Offer them here and turn us apostates from our wicked ways. This kind of proof is what were looking for......dude
BTW.....where have you been? Shelby has been ruthless to me without your help
Gumby
This is all I could read from your post. When most of your posts appear they seem to be blank. I do not know if your computer and mine are incompatible, but it is almost impossible to read them.
Have you heard from someone else having the same problem?
No, I have not. My posts all come up. I use different computers at two different libraries. I use double spaces in my posts to separate different topics, perhaps this is causing trouble with your computer.
rem said: I'm not asking for extensive records. I'm asking for any contemporary secular references at all. Many former religious figures have at least some contemporary secular records of their existence. They may not be extensive, but they exist. Curiously, none exist for Jesus.
The following discusses why we should not expect extensive secular records ( I realize that you are not asking for them. The following is provided for reference) http://www.tektonics.org/remslist.html
As to what you asked for rem, it depends on what your definition of "contemporary secular" is. Those such as Josephus lived relatively close to the time of Jesus (though they wrote later in life).
Here is a summary of secular evidence:
Josephus born 37 A.D. wrote 96. gives 2 references
Tacitus born 56 A.D. wrote 112. gives 1 reference
In addition to the above two references early writers referred to then extant secular records which would have been written shortly after the crucifixion.
The Roman Record "Acts of Pontius Pilate" (probably wrtitten within a realtively short persiond of time following the crucifixion) referred to by Justin Martyr (147 A.D.)
This "Histories" by Thallus 52 A.D.? referred to by Julius Africanus (221 A.D).
While the secular records to Jesus are not extenisive they are from a variety of sources and are consistent in their reference to the crucifixion.
seedy said: Oh and Hoberous, you gave no "eyewittness" to the crucifiction of Jesus, you gave references to people who lived or wrote 60 years or more later. You use the bible as a source of authority, yet the bible cannot be used in this because it is not known who wrote books or even truly when. If it was used in a court of Law it would have to be thrown out because it's source cannot be proven with accuracy and fact, it is shrouded with Questions and doubts.
Seedy, I gave several eye witnesses to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ under Pilate. We do know who wrote many of the books of the New Testament. The ones which contain no formal author have early attestation of being accepted as authentic. I also listed much evidence dating the various books as being early.
Even Lowder (who writes for the secular web) said: said that the New testament provides sufficient evidence for the historicity of Jesus: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html"McDowell quotes John Montgomery, who states the New Testament documents are reliable and therefore provide good evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Although I disagree with McDowell (and Montgomery) over the degree of reliability of the New Testament, that disagreement is irrelevant here. There is simply nothing intrinsically improbable about a historical Jesus; the New Testament alone (or at least portions of it) are reliable enough to provide evidence of a historical Jesus.[3] On this point, it is important to note that even G.A. Wells, who until recently was the champion of the Christ-myth hypothesis, now accepts the historicity of Jesus on the basis of 'Q.'[4]"
"I think there is ample evidence to conclude there was a historical Jesus. To my mind, the New Testament alone provides sufficient evidence for the historicity of Jesus, but the writings of Josephus also provide two independent, authentic references to Jesus."
In addtion to the eye witness testimony of the New Testamnt writers I listed the historival records of Josephus and Tacitus who lived fairly close in in time to the event discussed, If you are going to through out the testimony of Josephus and Tacitus because they lived after (though not many years) the events that they recorded about Jesus, then to be consistent you should through out their testimony of everyone else that they discussed which lived along these years! (something that no competent historian would do).
gumby said: regarding myth sites:
For this to be true......all negative writings would have to be colaberated from a single source and mimicked by other writers.That is not the case. Critics and scholars who write material have not ALL been influenced by a group or a man. Most of what they write is based on fact.........historical record, and findings.
I never said that they were in an organized conspiracy. They often twist facts and ignore historical records. I have pointed this out before, but I think that it is a good example of the way some of the "myth theory" sites present evidence: For example the jesusneverexisted.com site says: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm
Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty -eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4). The surfeit of early Jesuses includes:
What the site doesn't mention here is that the same book of Josephus that talks about Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel also talks about James the brother of Jesus who was called Christ. The reference to Jesus Christ is even in the same chapter as the others, and even in the same paragraph as one of the others!
While the site mentions and disputes the first reference of Josephus regarding Jesus (the Testamonium) , I can't find where it even mentions the second reference to Jesus which is generally accepted. The site uses Joesphus as a source for the historicity of Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel and ignores the reference to Jesus who was called Christ (a reference which occurrs in the same book, chapter, and even paragraph!).
gumby said: Much of what is on these sights can be found in any encyclopdia, or books dealing with ancient history and beliefs......therefore.....not bogus.
These same encyclopedias and (and most books on ancient history) refer to Jesus Christ as a historical person, yet the myth sites refer to jesus Christ as being bogus.
You hooberous, have looked at these sights and my hat is off to you for having the guts to go that far. How you cannot see the parallels between the pagans and the christians is beyond me.
The paralles are extremely weak and often come from post christian souces. For example Adonis was killed by a boar (found in a post christian text) How does this in any way parallel to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ? How does it disprove the crucifixion?
Gumby,
Shelby is relentless, she is a hell of a woman.....but her 'politics' eheehenm suck :).
Mankind seems to trivialize God Almighty with an insatiable need to humanize him. Tribal communities deify animals that represent god. Christians continue the tradition with Jesus.
The whole Jesus 'redemption' story is a complicated mire of human conjecture and fantasy. Similar to tens of thousands of required sacrifices and mumbo jumbo ancient Isreal had to perform, just to have contact with YHWH.
Mix in enough sanctified, holy of holies, forgiveness of sins, prophetic pronouncements, end times hyperbole, you have a receipe for a religion.
It is the stuff that creates fanatics, allows men like Russell, Smith, even guys like Billy Graham to mesmerize millions with 'the words' of faith. Words that derived from man's desire for sprituality and answers to questions unanswerable.
Dannny
