Did Jesus Christ exist at all?

by Tyler 83 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Ravyn

  danny:

  BINGO!

  Ravyn
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  DannyBear

  Thanks Ravyn.

  It is the absolutisim, the unyielding, self deluding, arrogance of 'true believer's, that helped to convince me that I could not accept ANY of the religious hogwash offered up as 'salvation' from the wrath of god. No matter the format or presentation. It is all unsubstantiated drivel.

  I would far more enjoy listening to a North American Indian shaman explain the significance of the various animal heads on a totem pole, Ravyn's, Eagles, Wolves, Bears........at least the symbols actually exsist and can be seen with one's own eye's. Not to mention these totems are devoid of bigotry and intolerance. When was the last time an Indian went to war in the name of the 'Bear Spirit'??

  Christianity the most pervasive, the most ardent in forcing thier view of god on other nations and tribes. Establishing missions in South America and North America that literally devasted and destroyed entire nationalities and culture.

  Christians should be ashamed of thier track record.

  'True believer's of Jesus, Allah, whomever should take a lesson from the Sioux.....go out to the 'Black Hills' and worship your god in true peace and serenity........you might really begin to see the true nature of GOD Almighty.

  Danny
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  seedy3

  Hoobereus, this is what you said:

  I have already presented 8 early witness to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ under Pilate (some Biblical, some secular). The crucifixion by Pilate is discussed in Encyclpedias as being historical

  Now the point you said is "Secular witnesses" and there are none, these guys saw nothing they only wrote by tradition. The Secular writinngs you gave were not eyewitnesses. That makes them actually hearsay, becasue they have nothing to back them up. As far as the acts of Pilot, that is considered to be a Heritical writing by most christian sects, so how could you refer to that as a source?

  As far a Jeffery Lowder saying that he beleives that Jesus was a real person, I can accept that, and may be it's true, but again the only reference that is truly accepted by most all scholars as being genuine is the reference to James the brother of Jesus, the so called Christ. Now in actuallity that is not a reference to Jesus that is actually a reference to the myth of Jesus and the passed down tradition. Again there is estimated to have been at least 20 Josuha's in the area at the time and the idea the the combination of James being a brother of a josuha is quite likely becasue both names were very common in that day.

  Seedy

  Edit note: I posted this and then realized what I typed and couldn't edit it earlier
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  hooberus

  seedy3 said: Now the point you said is "Secular witnesses" and there are none, these guys saw nothing they only wrote by tradition. The Secular writinngs you gave were not eyewitnesses. That makes them actually hearsay, becasue they have nothing to back them up.

  If you are going to through out the historical testimony of Josephus and Tacitus because they lived after (though not many years) the events that they recorded about Jesus, then to be consistent you should through out their testimony of everyone else that they discussed which lived along these years! (something that no competent historian would do). By this method you through out much of ancient history as being merely writing by "tradition" even if it was written shortly after ther events described and written by competent historians. In addtion to these secular sources, we have later writers such as Justin Martyr referring to historical documents which if accurate would be first century secular documents. Also we do have direct eye witnesses to the crucifixion to back up the secular sources, the testimony of the apostles.

  As far as the acts of Pilot, that is considered to be a Heritical writing by most christian sects, so how could you refer to that as a source?

  I refer to the original Acts of Pontius Pilate (see my first post). The one considered a forgery is a later document.

  71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope.

  As far a Jeffery Lowder saying that he beleives that Jesus was a real person, I can accept that, and may be it's true, but again the only reference that is truly accepted by most all scholars as being genuine is the reference to James the brother of Jesus, the so called Christ. Now in actuallity that is not a reference to Jesus that is actually a reference to the myth of Jesus and the passed down tradition.

  Most scholars (such as Lowder) accept the New Testament as reliable enough for a witness to the historicity of Jesus Christ. Most also accept parts of the Testamonium.

  Josephus discusses James and Jesus as actual persons, not a person and a myth.

  Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

  Again there is estimated to have been at least 20 Josuha's in the area at the time and the idea the the combination of James being a brother of a josuha is quite likely becasue both names were very common in that day.

  The fact that James is said to be "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ" makes the reference specific.

  Anyway, I feel that there is more than adequate evidence for this historicity of Jesus Christ. I feel that enough evidence has been presented. Those who disagree with me, (as well as most non-christian researchers, and encyclopedias), are entitled to their opinions. Jesus never forced belief on anyone.