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by Striker 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Duran
    Duran

    @ aqwsed

    I suppose I have no one to blame but myself for attempting to reason with a total foolish person unable to discuss. You keep with your copy and paste and don't even understand what you post. You keep just repeating the same.

    You fail to understand that the question asked 'to which one of the angels' did God say that to, is just that, what angel/spirit being son did he say that to. That's because that is all there is to choose from. There is Jehovah God, who was not created, and then there are all his angels/spirit being sons that he created.

    The one he (Jehovah) made/created first is considered his firstborn and that is what accounts for the sonship that does not apply to the other angel sons. It is that angel son that came to earth (for the first time) and when raised back to heaven sat at the right hand of God at that time. That is his exalted position. He is equal with God now from that point in the sense that he now has life within himself and everything/everyone (except Jehovah) is subjected to him. This was Jehovah's doing/reward to him in the exalted superior position.

    Even the chosen ones will be rewarded with life within themselves as well as getting to rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years. Jesus rules from the time he sat on the throne with Jehovah (at his right hand) until sometime after the 1,000 years when the last enemy death comes to an end and then hands the kingdom back to Jehovah.

    Jesus comes to earth a second time after the GT and guess what Michael is said to do...

    [12At that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people.]

    [24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

    [ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

    ___________________

    Will you answer the post where I said: 'Putting Jesus aside here"

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Duran

    I don't know where you saw any kind of "Jehovah" in the New Testament, and where you got that the Tetragrammaton equates with the person of the Father. I also don't know where you got that the Father "made" or "created" the Son, when the terminology the Bible uses for the Son's origin from the Father is consistently begotten or born, and never " created' or "made".

    Your interpretation assumes that Jesus, as the "firstborn" of God, is a created being, specifically the highest-ranking angel. This interpretation conflicts with multiple Scriptural assertions about Jesus' unique, uncreated nature and divine identity. The phrase in Hebrews 1:5, “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’?” (see? not "created"!) underscores that no angel holds the unique Sonship that Jesus possesses. Hebrews 1 differentiates Jesus from angels, making clear that His relationship with the Father is fundamentally different from that of created beings, including Michael.

    The rhetorical question in Hebrews 1:5 implies a negative answer—God did not say these words to any angel. This establishes that Jesus’ Sonship is unique and is not equivalent to being a created “spirit being.” The text deliberately emphasizes Jesus’ superiority over angels, reinforcing that He is more than just a "high-ranking angel."

    The term "firstborn" used in Colossians 1:15 does not mean “first created.” In biblical context, “firstborn” often signifies preeminence, supremacy, and authority rather than temporal sequence or creation. For example, David is called the “firstborn” in Psalm 89:27, although he was not the first son in his family. Here, “firstborn” signifies his preeminent status as king.

    In Colossians 1:16-17, it says, all things were created through him and for him.” This includes everything in heaven and earth, making Jesus the agent of creation, not part of it. Jesus cannot be a created being if all creation came into existence through Him. This text establishes His role as Creator, not as a member of the created order.

    While it is true that Jesus, in His incarnate form, was given authority in heaven and earth after His resurrection (Matthew 28:18), this does not imply He became divine or gained His authority for the first time. Philippians 2:6-11 explains that Jesus “emptied himself” and took the form of a servant, only to later be exalted in His human nature. This exaltation is a recognition of His completed mission on earth, not a new status conferred upon a previously created being.

    Colossians 2:9 declares that “in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” This statement shows that Jesus embodies the full divine essence. If Jesus were merely an exalted angel, such a statement would be blasphemous within a monotheistic framework, as the fullness of Deity is an attribute reserved solely for God.

    The role of Michael in Scripture is consistently depicted as that of a powerful angelic leader, particularly in spiritual battles (Daniel 10:13, 12:1; Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7). However, Michael is never shown as the Creator, nor is he worshiped, nor is he referred to as God’s unique Son. Michael’s role is to lead angelic hosts, not to command creation as the divine Logos (Word).

    The claim that Jesus and Michael perform the same role at the end times ignores their distinct identities and functions in Scripture. Daniel 12:1 describes Michael standing up for God’s people during a time of distress, consistent with his role as a guardian. However, when Jesus returns in Matthew 24:30 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7, He comes as the judge of all creation, a role reserved for God alone.

    In Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus is depicted as “King of kings and Lord of lords” who returns in divine judgment, an authority He possesses as the eternal Son of God, not as a created being. This supreme role aligns with His unique divinity, not with the role of Michael, who is depicted as a servant leader within the angelic hierarchy.

    The idea that Jesus’ reign is limited to a literal thousand years, during which time he will rule with the chosen ones, is a specific interpretation based primarily on Revelation 20:4-6. However, many biblical scholars and Christian traditions view the thousand years symbolically, representing the entirety of the age between Jesus' first and second coming. This amillennial perspective suggests that Jesus' rule began with His resurrection and ascension, and it continues until His final return, at which point He will establish the new heaven and new earth permanently (Revelation 21:1-4).

    Revelation 20 describes this "thousand-year" period as a time when Satan’s power is restricted, allowing for the spread of the gospel and the reign of believers with Christ. However, this is not a separate kingdom but the continued extension of Christ’s kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Rather than limiting Jesus’ rule to a literal thousand years, the New Testament teaches that He reigns eternally, and His dominion is everlasting (Daniel 7:14, Luke 1:33).

    1 Corinthians 15:24-26 does indeed describe Jesus handing over the Kingdom to the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power, culminating in the defeat of death itself. This passage, however, does not imply that Jesus’ reign or authority comes to an end; instead, it signifies a unification under God’s ultimate sovereignty. The expression of “handing the kingdom back” reflects the submission of the Son to the Father in His role, fulfilling God’s redemptive plan. Importantly, it does not mean that Jesus will cease to reign, as He shares eternal authority with the Father (Hebrews 1:8).

    The phrase “until the last enemy, death, is destroyed” signals the completion of Christ’s redemptive work, yet Jesus remains King alongside the Father. The Son’s kingship endures as part of the Trinity’s unified reign.

    The idea that the “chosen ones” will have life within themselves mirrors the concept of believers sharing in eternal life, which is a gift from God through Christ (Romans 6:23, John 10:28). However, the Bible does not indicate that believers attain life as an intrinsic possession independent of God. Eternal life remains a gift granted by God's grace, not something believers possess autonomously.

    Further, the believers, often referred to as saints or those who “reign with Christ” (2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 5:10), are understood in the New Testament as participating in Jesus' victory over sin and death. However, their role is that of service and worship, not as sovereign rulers with life “within themselves.” This understanding highlights the relational and dependent nature of eternal life rather than an autonomous or self-sustained existence.

    Scripture repeatedly affirms the eternal nature of Jesus' kingship. Passages such as Daniel 7:14 and Luke 1:32-33 describe Jesus’ kingdom as one that will never end. Hebrews 1:8 further supports this, stating, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.” The Kingdom of God is not a temporary arrangement but an everlasting reality.

    While 1 Corinthians 15 does discuss the handing over of the kingdom, this passage should be understood within the context of Jesus' earthly redemptive work reaching its consummation. It does not negate His eternal authority or kingship. The “chosen ones,” therefore, are not participating in a temporary kingdom but are part of the eternal reign of God with Christ.

    The phrase "handing over the kingdom to the Father" does not imply Jesus’ rule ends or that He will no longer exercise authority. Instead, it reflects the culmination of His work in fully subjecting all things under God's sovereignty. Jesus' earthly mission, culminating in His death, resurrection, and eventual subjection of all enemies, is completed when death is finally defeated. This act of “handing over” signifies the accomplishment of God’s ultimate purpose, yet Jesus remains in an eternal, glorified state alongside the Father.

    But since you mentioned "the chosen ones", and I know that JWs apply this to a separate "class" of salvation (the 144k), so I will briefly touch on the refutation of this as well. Scripture repeatedly emphasizes the unity of all believers as one body in Christ, without distinction in their access to salvation and their relationship with God. Ephesians 4:4-5 states, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” This passage highlights that all Christians share a single hope, a unified calling, and one destiny in Christ.

    Similarly, Galatians 3:28 reinforces this unity by stating, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” In context, Paul’s message is clear: believers are equal participants in salvation through Jesus, and no distinctions exist regarding class, status, or destiny within the redeemed community.

    The New Testament uses the term “chosen” or “elect” (Greek: ἐκλεκτοί, eklektoi) to refer to believers in general, rather than a subset with distinct privileges or destiny. For instance:

    • 1 Peter 2:9 addresses all Christians as a “chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession,” emphasizing their shared identity and collective purpose as God’s people.
    • Romans 8:29-30 speaks of those “predestined, called, justified, and glorified,” implying a single journey to glorification for all who are in Christ, rather than dividing believers into distinct classes.

    The New Testament does not restrict the hope of heaven to a small group of chosen individuals. Instead, the promise of eternal life and unity with Christ in heaven is extended to all who believe:

    • John 14:2-3: Jesus promises, “In my Father’s house are many rooms… I will come again and take you to myself, that where I am, you may be also.” Here, Jesus offers heavenly fellowship to all his followers, not a select group.
    • Philippians 3:20-21 confirms this, saying, “Our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.” The use of “our” indicates the shared nature of this hope among all believers.

    The number 144,000 in Revelation (Rev. 7:4, 14:1) is often interpreted symbolically, representing the completeness of God’s people rather than a literal, exclusive class. The number is formed from 12 tribes multiplied by 12 apostles, signifying the entire church (Old and New Covenant believers), rather than suggesting a limited number or separate class with unique privileges. This understanding aligns with the later description of “a great multitude that no one could count” (Revelation 7:9), showing that the vision of salvation is expansive and inclusive, extending to all nations, tribes, and peoples.

    The Bible teaches that all believers are “co-heirs” with Christ, sharing in his inheritance and reign. Romans 8:17 says, “If we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” This co-heir status applies universally to believers, without distinction of class or separate redemption.

    Additionally, Revelation 5:9-10 describes a universal priesthood, stating that Jesus “purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation” and made them “a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.” This priestly role and reign are not limited to a specific class; instead, it applies broadly to all who are redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice.

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