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by Striker 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Duran

  When looking at Hebrews, God is speaking to A Son- Jesus. Not "sons of God". This is specific to Jesus vs an angel. Heb 1:2-8 - these verses clearly define The One. Jesus.

  Yes, it is true that it is talking about Jesus, but that does not change that ALL angels are 'sons' of God, including Jesus and Satan, them both being angels as well.

  Again, you said:

  To which one of the angels did he ( God ) call son? ( Hebrews 1:5) None

  The answer to which one of the angels did he specifically call out as his 'son' is Jesus his 'firstborn' (first created/only be-gotten).

  _____________________________

  Also, you fail to acknowledge that Jesus comes with an archangel voice, commanding his angels to gather his chosen ones together.

  [ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.]

  [ 30 ... they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]
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  peacefulpete

  Pete: whomever he may be thinking of, we can only work on what is written. I am not struggling as you say, I believe it's very clear. Jesus and Michael are not the same, but thanks for that info.

  Jesus, (a name likely drawn from that same Zechariah section aka branch) is a separate figure in some contexts. Much like the Logos was separate from Wisdom in some late Jewish works but used pretty interchangeably in others. Similarly in Daniel (in its final redaction) an editor equates the Son of Man with Michael. These names were plastic/somewhat loose in usage. Philo sees the Logos as basically the sum of other emanations. The earliest Christians apparently felt similar. Jesus is called Son of Man, Son of God, Wisdom and Logos as well as other terms associated with the second power concept. 'Michael' in Revelation (which was likely a collection of Jewish works before being redacted into a Christian one) is depicted again as the warrior great prince/angel/Son of Man. It seems likely that the Christian responsible for the redaction of this Jewish symbolism assumed readers would understand the 'Michael' figure as another facet/face of the 'Lamb', the Lion, the 'Christ' 'Son of Man' and 'mighty Angel' in a second power warrior role. Yes, that might be surprising but I'm of the mind that the various 'strong angels' in Revelation are likewise symbols of this same concept. Note that the 'strong angel' is described in the typical theophanic manner as Yahweh (Eze 1:26-28) and Jesus (Matt 17:2) are.

  Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke.
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  Vanderhoven7

  16 because Jehovah himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

  Yes, then every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Jehovah.
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  Duran

  
  

  So, Jehovah comes down with an 'archangel's voice' and with 'God's trumpet'?

  Is the following Jehovah too?

  [ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]

  [ 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

  [13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.]

  If Jehovah is the 'son of man', who is the 'Ancient of Days/that One'?
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  peacefulpete

  If Jehovah is the 'son of man', who is the 'Ancient of Days/that One'?

  The God Almighty, Most High. There was a genuine difference between camps of scribes. Some saw Yahweh as an emanation/agent/son of El Most High while some like 2nd Isaiah and a couple Psalm writers combined the two. These two ideas appear to have been in tension in the 5th century forward. It seems an idea only recently becoming popularized. Most research assumes the Most High's delegation of Israel to Yahweh in Deut 32 reflects a very early form that somehow escaped the editors. It might rather actually reflect a later theological development (or possibly preserved with that new interpretation), where the Most High is far too transcendent to interact directly with material things and He uses the agency of a Logos/Son.

  It is important to realize that not every writer shared this concept in identical ways. IOW, the writer describing Logos may not have had in mind all the other names/terms used by other writers in different contexts. Each pericope was meant to be understood in its own context. I'm not therefore sure we should assume the writer of Dan 7 understood Yahweh as identical with the SofM/Michael.

  It gets messy. Daniel is a composite work made up of centuries old stories combined with apocalyptic elements from the Maccabean period. It also went through some editing in the years following. Notice in chapt 9, the only section that mentions 'Yahweh', and how even in this section the use is inconsistent. It's difficult to understand the motives but it would seem some editing is involved. IOW, did the writer of the apocalyptic sections (or even just chapt 9) use the tetragrammaton (my/our God YHWH) of not? If so, did he differentiate him from the 'Most High' the expression in Chapts 3,4,5 or the 'God of heaven', 'Lord of Kings' and 'God of Gods' in chapt 2 or 'Ancient of Days' in 7?
• 

  LauraLynn

  This is an interesting discussion. But first of all, we can consider that one of the first commandments given by God in the Bible is that He alone is to receive worship:

  ""You shall have no other gods before me." [Exo 20:3 ESV]

  "Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"" [Mat 4:10 ESV]

  Even angels point to the Lord as being the only God to worship:

  "Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Rev 19:10 ESV]

  Those who insist that Jesus is merely an angel and not the Lord of Glory have troubles then with the following verses that show proper worship of Jesus Christ:

  "saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped." [Rev 5:12-14 ESV]

  "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."" [Heb 1:6 ESV]

  "And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." [Mat 2:11 ESV]

  "And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy," [Luk 24:52 ESV]

  "Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"" [Jhn 20:28 ESV]

  These are just a few verses to ponder then. If Jesus were an merely an angel, He would not have received worship.
  
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  stan livedeath

  
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  stan livedeath

  
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  Duran

  Those who insist that Jesus is merely an angel and not the Lord of Glory have troubles then with the following verses that show proper worship of Jesus Christ:

  You apparently have trouble with reasoning on the very Scriptures you cite.

  First off, Jesus is not just merely an angel (an angelic son of God). He his God's first angelic son. Being the first one the Jehovah created; it was only them two for a period of time. Then at that point whatever was created next, whether it was more angelic sons, or planets, stars, etc., Jesus was with Jehovah when the very next thing/s were created from that point on.

  Then it was this first created angelic son of God's that wanted to see his father's purpose for mankind to succeed, so was willing to come down to be the solution for what Adam's lost.

  _________________

  Who is on the throne?

  Who is the Lamb?

  Are they ONE person or TWO separate?

  [5 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice: “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered, ... 7 At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped.]

  [16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”]
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  peacefulpete

  To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the ruling power forever and ever.”

  So who receives the "blessing and the honor and the glory and the ruling power forever and ever."?

  Are they not described collectively as if the lamb is an emanation of God?