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by Striker 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Duran
    Duran
    So who receives the "blessing and the honor and the glory
    Are they not described collectively as if the lamb is an emanation of God?

    They both do and are worthy of such.

    Jehovah does because he is God Almighty.

    Jesus does because in Jehovah's view he earned such and as a result Jehovah exalted him and gave him authority. With that said, Jesus is not exalted over Jehovah, but he is over everything and everyone else.

    [ 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.]

  • Konagirl
    Konagirl

    Exod 23:20-23 - “I am going to send an angel (“messenger”) before you to protect you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Be attentive to him and listen to him. Do not defy him, because he will not forgive your acts of rebellion, for my name is in him.

    So, they were to listen to this “angel”.

    22 But if you will carefully obey him and do everything I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes.”

    Who else at the time, but Jesus as the Logos, would be given the authority to guide the people in God’s word and to not forgive their acts of rebellion? (John 1:1; John 5:22,30) (1 John 5:20)

    If God is truth, and Jesus is the word/truth of God (Logos) he would have God’s name in him…as an angel, as Michael the “archangel”, the chief messenger of God. (“who is like God?”)… and Jesus, God’s messenger/angel when he walked the earth ("YHVH is salvation"). (John 14:6;1:1,14; 17:17)

    And it’s not the only time God told His people under covenant to “listen to him”. Luke 9:35 - Then a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, the Chosen One; listen to him!”

    To support the angel as Jesus Christ in Exod 23:20-23 who would bring God’s people “to the place I have prepared”, is another scripture:

    “Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.” 1 Cor 10:1-4

    There was no other angel/messenger to “to protect you on the way and bring you to the place I have prepared”, except Jesus Christ as the messenger angel and Word of God.

    Daniel 12:1 - “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise...”

    Jesus is the great Shepherd of God’s people, His sheep. Shepherds protect the flock and save them from harm. John 10:2-4,9

    “Then WAR broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” Rev 12:7

    “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages WAR.” Rev 19:11

    In Revelation 19:14, Jesus has his own army following him. So, are there two battling this war, two protectors of God’s people, with their own army of "angels", one called Michael and one called “Faithful and True”, who has the ability to judge? Many times Jewish names depict a divine assignment from God. No one questions the fact that Jesus is called, “Faithful and True” in this scripture. No one questions that in Revelation 19:12, Jesus has a name written on him that “no one knows but he himself”.

    And no one questions that Jesus will give his new name to those who are victorious and stand alongside him in the battle against Satan, his demonic deceptions and his “angel”/messengers with him. Rev 13:12

    “Angel” simply means “messenger” in both Hebrew and Greek. And it can be used to apply to people – Gen 28:12; John 1:51; Mal 2:7; Matt 11:10; 1 Tim 5:21

    Jesus is also called the "Prince of peace" in Isaiah 9:6. In Daniel 9:21, and Michael is called "prince". So, does calling Jesus "Prince", degrade his position as God's Son?

    "...And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isa 9:6

  • Duran
    Duran
    If God is truth, and Jesus is the word/truth of God (Logos) he would have God’s name in him Jesus, God’s messenger/angel when he walked the earth ("YHVH is salvation")


    יהוה Jehoah

    יהושע Jehoshua

    Jehoah is Salvation

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Revelation seems to indicate pretty clearly that Michael and Jesus are 2 separate entities.

  • Duran
    Duran

    Revelation only mentions Michael one time.

    [7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.]

    We know Michael is an archangel and as such he has his angels under his command.

    Jesus comes with an archangel's voice and commands his angels to gather his chosen ones together.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    We know Michael is an archangel and as such he has his angels under his command.
    Jesus comes with an archangel's voice and commands his angels to gather his chosen ones together.

    There are a lot of 'characters' that feature in revelation. Jesus is portrayed consistently as the slaughtered 'lamb', with 7 horns and 7 eyes. There are various types of angels, carrying out different roles, there are the 4 living creatures, and the list goes on.

    Jesus having a voice 'like an archangel ' does not automatically imply that he is 'the' archangel, does it?

  • Konagirl
    Konagirl

    @ joey jojo - Jesus having a voice 'like an archangel ' does not automatically imply that he is 'the' archangel, does it?

    Well, that quote is from 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and it accurately says in the KJV:

    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”

    Interestingly, the YLT says, “because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first”

    If you go to biblegateway.com and choose “1 Thessalonians 4:16 in all English translations”, you’ll see that not one of them says, “like an archangel”.

  • Konagirl
    Konagirl

    Is it so impossible to believe that Jesus was a messenger for God? A "chief messenger"/"chief of the angels"/archangel?

    John 12:49-50 - For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Remember, Revelation is a collection of Jewish apocalyptic works redacted and reframed by a Christian. This was done in other Jewish apocalyptic works as well, so this is not unusual. This explains the nonlinear and repetitive narrative. There are not two battles nor are all the nations gathered for war and defeated twice, these are stand-alone scenes using slightly different imagery, in one the Logos is a Lamb in another he is a lion, in another a mighty angel, in another Michael. (reading a single artificially divided chapter sometimes has the Logos shift personas multiple times). The Christian reuse of this material, (with segue and framing interpolations) reveals that he understood his Jesus Christ as the primary actor in all of them. This Christ is the also the Alpha and Omega and is equaled to the God Almighty, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Dan 2:47) in eternal glory and power, because he is the Logos/Wisdom/Son of God hence actually a projection of God.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Revelation is presented as a vision and it reads almost like watching a movie or a play. Without any other context, or reading anything into it, ' the lamb'- Jesus and Michael- ' the archangel ' are 2 different players in the story.

    Jesus is referred to, over and over as the lamb. If ' the lamb' did battle with the dragon, there is no reason not to make that clear. But the book clearly describes a separate entity - Michael.

    In Rev 19:11, there is another character, identified as the word of god and king of kings who seems to be Jesus, who defeats the beast and false prophet.

    I'm not going to stake my life on my interpretation. It just seems to read that way to me.

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