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by Striker 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

aqwsed12345
@Duran
The term “sons of God” (bene Elohim) is indeed used for angels in the Old Testament (Job 1:6, Job 2:1), but the Bible makes a clear distinction between Jesus as the unique “Son of God” and other beings, including angels, who are collectively called “sons of God.”
Hebrews 1:5-6 clarifies this difference by asking, “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’?” This verse emphasizes that none of the angels, including Michael, received the specific designation of “Son” in the unique sense that Jesus did. Jesus is not one among many “sons of God” in the same way as angels; rather, He is the only-begotten Son (John 3:16), holding a unique, relational status with the Father that is never applied to any angel.
While “sons of God” in Job may refer to angels collectively, Satan’s later designation and role in Scripture are fundamentally distinct from the loyal angels. Satan is depicted as a fallen being who opposes God, while Michael is described as loyal to God. More importantly, Jesus is never included in any general group of “sons” in the sense applied to angels or Satan. Hebrews 1:6 further highlights this distinction by instructing all angels (including Michael) to worship Jesus, underscoring that Jesus’ sonship and position are unique and superior to that of any created angel.
This phrase in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not imply that Jesus is an archangel; rather, it uses the imagery of an archangel’s voice to signify authority and command over the angelic hosts. A helpful parallel is found in Revelation 1:10, where John hears a “loud voice, like a trumpet,” without implying that the voice or John is a literal trumpet. The “voice of an archangel” in this context is symbolic language indicating that Jesus’ return will be accompanied by an authoritative command, as befits His role as the Lord of hosts.
Additionally, Jesus being described as having an authoritative voice “like” that of an archangel underscores His commanding position over angelic beings, rather than identifying Him as one. This usage demonstrates a manner or style of authority, not an indication of identity. Hebrews 1:4 reinforces that Jesus “inherited a name superior to the angels,” meaning He holds an elevated rank above all angelic beings, including archangels.
The reference to the “voice of an archangel” is a stylistic description rather than an indication of rank or identity. In ancient Near Eastern cultures and biblical language, the “voice” or “shout” associated with an archangel signifies the power and authority of a ruler commanding their forces. This does not imply that the ruler is of equal rank to those commanded but simply emphasizes the authority of the call.
In military contexts, for instance, a general might issue a command that could be described as “with the voice of a captain,” meaning it carries the clarity, urgency, and authority expected in such a command. It does not mean the general is a captain. Similarly, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 uses the “voice of an archangel” to portray the authoritative power of Jesus’ command at His return, not His identity as an archangel.
The writer of Hebrews goes to great lengths to differentiate Jesus from all angelic beings:
- Hebrews 1:6 commands that all angels worship Jesus, setting Him apart from all of them.
- Hebrews 1:8-9 refers to Jesus as “God” and attributes an eternal throne to Him, affirming His divinity.
- Hebrews 1:13 says, “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’?” emphasizing that no angel, including Michael, shares this position of authority.
These passages affirm that Jesus is superior in nature, rank, and worship to all angels, including Michael. If Jesus were Michael, the distinction made in Hebrews 1 would be both unnecessary and contradictory.
The term “archangel” means “chief angel” or “leading angel,” indicating rank among angels, not exclusivity to one being. The Bible does not state that there can only be one archangel; rather, it simply identifies Michael as an archangel. Even if Michael were unique in this rank, this does not imply that Jesus must be Michael. Jesus holds authority over all, not just angels, as affirmed by His role as the Creator (Colossians 1:16-17) and by the fact that all of creation, including angels, worships Him (Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:13-14).
In summary:
- The “voice of an archangel” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 denotes authoritative command, not identity as an archangel. It conveys power, not equality of rank.
- Jesus is distinct from all angels, including Michael, as shown in Hebrews 1, where He is worshiped by angels and described as God’s unique Son.
- Michael and Jesus have different roles in Scripture: Michael is a protector and warrior angel, while Jesus is depicted as the eternal Son, Creator, and King over all.
Thus, the idea that Jesus is Michael the archangel is inconsistent with the biblical portrayal of Jesus as inherently superior to and distinct from all angels, including Michael. This understanding reinforces the Christian belief in Jesus’ divinity, distinct from angelic beings.
Duran

@ aqwsed12345
Alot posted from you there and yet still did to answer my questions. Can you answer just what is asked here...
Are those sons of God, are they angels? (Speaking of those said to take their station before Jehovah. Job 1:6)
Is Satan an angel?
Is Satan God's son?
Is Michael an angel?
Is Michael God's son?
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The term “archangel” means “chief angel” or “leading angel,”
Even if Michael were unique in this rank, this does not imply that Jesus must be Michael.
[7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]
So, you don't think Michael is Jesus...OKAY, but do you think:
Michael's angels are Jesus' angels?
Do you think Michael is included among Jesus' angels?
peacefulpete

The book of Job, doesn't know of the name Yahweh, Michael or angels. The sole exception is Job 4:18 where the word 'angels' is likely substituted for 'sons'. It appears in the LXX Greek forms and the MT but unfortunately, we do not have witnesses from Qumran of this verse.
Duran

[18 Look! He has no faith in his servants, And he finds fault with his angels.] 4397. malak (messenger)
[6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.] 1121. ben (son)
[2 the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose.] 1121. ben (son)
[6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.] 32. aggelos (messenger,angel)
[2 Then Jehovah’s angel went up from Gilʹgal to Boʹchim and said: “I brought you up out of Egypt into the land about which I swore to your forefathers. Furthermore, I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you.] 4397. malak (messenger)
[5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son] 32. aggelos (messenger,angel) - 5207. huios (son)
[ 35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.”] 5207. huios (son)
[ 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.”] 5207. huios (son)
Duran

Hebrew 4397. malak (messenger) - Greek 32. aggelos (messenger,angel)
Hebrew 1121. ben (son) - Greek 5207. huios (son)
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When I talk about 'angels', I am speaking about spirit-beings that Jehovah God created.
When I talk about 'sons' here, I am talking about these angelic spirit-beings that Jehovah created which are said to be myriads of them. These would include Michael, Satan, and Gabriel.
Did he create all of them at the same time... or in many septate groups at different times.
If it was many septate groups at different times, that means there is a group of however many they were, that are Jehovah's first angelic spirit-being sons. These unknown number of sons would be his firstborns/first created angelic spirit-being sons.
Now at this point, no matter how many more groups followed to complete all the myriads that were created, the one thing that would be so, is that the first group were on hand to witness ALL the following groups being created.
Now what if Jehovah didn't start with a group, what if he started with one, maybe just Michael.
Then that would mean Michael was his firstborn/first created angelic spirit-being son.
Then after that, what if he went to creating groups at a time until all angelic spirit-being sons were created.
That would mean that Michael his firstborn/first created angelic spirit-being son was on hand to see all other angelic spirit-being sons being created.
Now jumping to Jesus, with Jehovah calling him a 'son' (5207. huios) at Luke 9:35. That mention of him being called Jehovah's 'son' is no different than all the myriads of angelic spirit-beings being called Jehovah's 'sons'. (1121. ben - 5207. huios)
The significance when it comes to Jesus is that he was audibly/publicly called 'son' by Jehovah in order to be glorified by him. And it was said that he was the chosen one and to listen to him.
aqwsed12345
@Duran
Are the "Sons of God" in Job 1:6 Angels?
Yes, the "sons of God" mentioned in Job 1:6 refer to angels, but they are a general category of created beings. They are spiritual beings created by God and, as such, can be referred to as "sons of God" because they derive their existence from Him. However, this designation does not imply equality or equivalence with Jesus.
Jesus is uniquely called "Son of God" in a way that surpasses all other beings. Hebrews 1:5 specifically says, “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’?” This shows that God’s declaration of Jesus as "Son" is unique and does not apply to any created angelic beings, including Michael. The Greek term “huios” (son) in relation to Jesus is used in a unique context that denotes relational and ontological unity with God, not merely created status.
Is Satan an Angel?
Yes, Satan is a fallen angel. Originally created as a spirit being, Satan later chose to rebel against God. While angels like Satan are called "sons of God" in the Old Testament due to their created nature, this does not imply sonship in the same way as Jesus, who is the “only-begotten Son” (John 3:16).
Satan’s status as an angel underscores that he, like other angels, is a created being and falls under God’s authority, unlike Jesus, who is “over all” (Colossians 1:15-20) and worshiped by angels (Hebrews 1:6).
Is Michael an Angel and a "Son of God"?
Michael is indeed an angel, specifically designated as an "archangel" in Jude 1:9, which refers to him as the chief or leader of the angels. The term "archangel" (Greek: archangelos) means "chief angel," indicating a high-ranking role among angelic beings.
Michael, like other loyal angels, is a "son of God" in the sense that he is a created spiritual being, but this does not equate him with Jesus. As Hebrews 1:4-5 shows, Jesus’ sonship is entirely unique and does not apply to any angelic beings, even the archangel Michael.
The phrase "with the voice of an archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) does not imply that Jesus Himself is the archangel. It instead emphasizes the authoritative nature of His return. Just as a commanding officer may issue orders with a commanding voice, Jesus returns with authority that resonates like that of a leader over angelic forces.
Saying that Jesus returns "with the voice of an archangel" does not mean He is an archangel any more than calling Jesus the "Lion of Judah" makes Him a literal lion. This language illustrates the magnitude of His authority over creation, which includes angels.
Is Jesus Merely a First-Created Angel or Something Greater?
Colossians 1:16-17 clearly distinguishes Jesus as the one through whom all things were created, "in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." This includes all angelic beings, indicating that Jesus is not part of creation but rather the divine agent through whom creation came into existence.
Describing Jesus as the “Firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15) does not imply that He was created. The term “firstborn” (Greek: prototokos) here signifies preeminence or supremacy, not chronological order. As “firstborn,” Jesus holds the position of authority and inheritance over all creation, which would be inappropriate if He were a created being. He is distinct from all creation and the source of it.
Michael is consistently portrayed as a protective angelic figure, particularly in Daniel 10:13, Daniel 12:1, and Revelation 12:7, where he contends with evil forces but is never described as the Creator, Sustainer, or Savior. Michael’s role is that of an angelic defender of God’s people, not as the Son of God.
Jesus’ role goes far beyond that of an angel. Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as “the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature,” a description that is never applied to any angel, including Michael. Jesus is the One who sustains “all things by the word of His power,” indicating that He possesses divine attributes and authority.
Hebrews 1:6 states, “Let all God’s angels worship him [Jesus].” If Jesus were simply an angel, it would be contradictory for God to command all angels, including archangels, to worship Jesus. This worship is directed solely toward the divine in Scripture, underscoring Jesus’ divine identity rather than angelic status.
Additionally, in Revelation 5:13-14, Jesus (the Lamb) receives worship alongside the One on the throne (God the Father). This dual worship aligns with Trinitarian theology, which teaches that Jesus shares in the divine essence with the Father, rather than being a separate created being. If Jesus were merely an archangel, such worship would be inappropriate and inconsistent with monotheistic worship.
In Revelation 12:7, Michael is described as leading “his angels” in a heavenly battle. Similarly, Jesus is described in Matthew 13:41, 16:27, and 24:31 as sending “his angels” to gather His elect. However, this does not imply they are the same being; rather, it emphasizes that both Jesus and Michael operate under divine command but in distinct roles.
Jesus’ authority over angels is absolute (Matthew 28:18), whereas Michael’s role as “one of the chief princes” (Daniel 10:13) implies a level of hierarchy under divine authority rather than supreme authority. Michael is a commander within the angelic ranks, whereas Jesus is “Lord of lords” and “King of kings” (Revelation 19:16), over all creation.
Summary
- While angels can be termed “sons of God,” Jesus holds a unique status as the “only-begotten Son,” a term that indicates a unique, divine relationship with the Father, distinct from that of any created being.
- The term “archangel” is a title indicating a high-ranking angel but does not apply to Jesus, who holds authority above all angels. Describing Jesus as having a “voice of an archangel” signifies His commanding authority, not identity as an archangel.
- Michael and Jesus have different roles, with Michael serving as a defender within the angelic order, while Jesus exercises divine sovereignty over all creation, including angels.
- Jesus is worshiped by angels, indicating His divine nature, while Michael is never depicted as receiving worship.
In conclusion, Scripture makes clear distinctions between Jesus and Michael. Jesus is God’s unique Son, worthy of worship and possessing divine authority over all creation, whereas Michael serves as an archangel within the created order. This difference in roles, worship, and authority underscores that Jesus is not an angelic being but rather the eternal Son of God.
Duran

Yes, Satan is a fallen angel. Originally created as a spirit being
Michael is indeed an angel,
Yes, the "sons of God" mentioned in Job 1:6 refer to angels, but they are a general category of created beings. They are spiritual beings created by God and, as such, can be referred to as "sons of God"
Putting Jesus aside here, we agree that ALL angels (including Michael and Satan) are spirit beings created by God and they are considered God's sons. (1121. ben/5207. huios)
That said, tell me if you agree with the following:
God existed before he created ANY of these said angelic spirit sons.
Then at some point, he created them and then they came to exist along with him.
The one he created first would be his first created angelic spirit son.
Do you follow and agree with the said so far?
aqwsed12345

@Duran
Your line of reasoning assumes that all "sons of God," including Jesus, must be created beings simply because they are described as "sons." However, this conclusion misses the significant distinctions in biblical language and context when referring to Jesus' unique Sonship. While it’s true that angels like Michael and Satan are referred to as "sons of God" due to their status as created spiritual beings, this doesn’t automatically place Jesus in the same category. The Bible differentiates Jesus as the "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), or monogenēs in Greek, which signifies His unique, one-of-a-kind status. The term monogenēs implies a singular, unshared Sonship, distinct from that of created beings. Hebrews 1:5 also emphasizes this distinction by asking, "To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’?" Here, the author clearly separates Jesus from created beings.
Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as the "firstborn of all creation," which often leads to confusion. However, the term "firstborn" (Greek prototokos) traditionally denotes preeminence or supremacy in rank, not temporal origin. This title signifies that Jesus holds authority over creation, not that He is part of it. Psalm 89:27, for instance, describes David as the "firstborn," despite David not being the first son. Here, "firstborn" indicates priority and sovereignty, not sequence of creation.
Colossians 1:16 states that "all things were created through him and for him." This statement is incompatible with the idea of Jesus being a created being. If He were created, He could not logically be simply an instrument "through whom all things were created," since He would have to create Himself—a philosophical and theological impossibility.
John 1:1-3 affirms that "in the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God." This passage establishes the eternal pre-existence of Jesus (the Word) as God, distinct from created beings. Furthermore, Philippians 2:6 reveals that Jesus "was in the form of God" before His incarnation, underscoring His divine nature before taking on human flesh.
Jesus’ relationship with the Father is described in terms far exceeding those applied to angels. Jesus declares in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one," affirming an intimate unity with God that no angel or created being possesses. Furthermore, in John 5:18, the Jewish leaders understood Jesus’ claim of God as His Father as making Himself "equal with God," indicating His divine status rather than a mere creaturely sonship.
So angels are indeed "sons of God" in the sense of being created beings, but Jesus’ Sonship is of an entirely different nature. Scripture sets Him apart as the "only-begotten" and identifies Him as the agent of creation rather than a part of it. Therefore, while angels like Michael and Satan were created as "sons of God," Jesus’ Sonship signifies His divine essence, eternal existence, and unity with the Father, distinguishing Him entirely from the angelic order.
In summary, applying the term "created" to Jesus based on the title "Son of God" is a category error, as it disregards the biblical and theological nuances that portray His unique and eternal relationship with the Father. The Scriptures affirm that Jesus is not the first created being but the eternal Son, sharing fully in the divine essence with the Father and the Spirit.
Duran

@ aqwsed
While I wait for your response to the above, I will add this:
Jesus’ authority over angels is absolute (Matthew 28:18), whereas Michael’s role as “one of the chief princes” (Daniel 10:13) implies a level of hierarchy under divine authority rather than supreme authority. Michael is a commander within the angelic ranks, whereas Jesus is “Lord of lords” and “King of kings” (Revelation 19:16), over all creation.
You are speaking of Michael at a point in time as referenced in Daniel. This was before Jesus came to earth as a man. Michael was/is under authority of God, YES and as archangel with God's authority, Michael had authority over the angels. (Technically over his brothers, they and him being sons of God.)
Jesus does indeed have authority over all creation, but he does not over Jehovah God. It was after Jesus died and was raised that he was exalted to a superior position. He was given that power and authority over all by Jehovah.
Jesus, a son of God has authority over the angels/sons of God (Jesus' brothers) which he always had in his position as archangel, but now since coming and dying and being raised, now in his exalted superior position, the angels/his brothers are subject to him based on his own authority, not Jehovah's as he has been given authority over all in heaven and earth, except over Jehovah God.
[ 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position]
[ 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.]
[22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.]
[27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.]
aqwsed12345
@Duran
You claim that Michael the archangel was an early form or role of Jesus before Jesus' earthly incarnation, and that Jesus' later authority over creation is a separate, post-resurrection exaltation by God. The term “archangel” means “chief angel” or “leader of angels”, which suggests a high rank among angels, but it does not imply divinity. Jesus, however, is depicted in Scripture as distinct from angels and as God’s unique Son. Hebrews 1:5 states clearly that God never called any angel His Son, underscoring that Jesus holds a unique, divine status far above that of an archangel.
Hebrews 1:3-4 describes Jesus as “the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of his nature.” This language distinguishes Jesus as sharing God’s nature itself, not as a mere created being, including any angelic beings. Furthermore, Hebrews 1:6 commands all angels to worship Jesus. If Jesus were Michael, another created being, such worship would be inappropriate within the context of biblical monotheism, which reserves worship solely for God.
While Philippians 2:9-11 speaks of God exalting Jesus after His resurrection, this exaltation is a public recognition of the authority and divine status Jesus already held by nature. Philippians 2:6 explicitly states that Jesus, “being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.” This underscores Jesus’ pre-existing divine status, not a mere elevated role granted to Him after His resurrection.
Colossians 1:16-17 further clarifies that Jesus is the agent through whom all things were created, which inherently places Him above all creation, including angelic beings. Creation itself cannot be sustained without His power, as verse 17 says, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” This surpasses any role of an archangel and places Jesus uniquely in the position of Creator and Sustainer.
Hebrews 1:13-14 explicitly differentiates Jesus from angels, stating, “To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’?” This passage is crucial as it emphasizes Jesus’ unique position at the right hand of God, a position of divine authority and honor that no angel, including Michael, ever holds. Michael’s role as an archangel, or chief messenger, does not imply equality with God, while Jesus, as God’s Son, holds this position by nature, not by role.
The argument that Michael is simply a former role of Jesus ignores that Jesus’ identity as the divine Son of God is eternal. John 1:1-3 reveals Jesus’ pre-incarnate identity as the Logos (Word) who was with God and was God, meaning He existed with the Father from eternity and was active in creation. This eternal identity contrasts sharply with Michael’s temporary role as an angelic leader.
The text in Matthew 28:18, where Jesus says, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me,” confirms Jesus’ authority over all creation. This authority, however, does not imply that He ever was an angel. The language of “giving” here reflects the completion of Jesus’ salvific work on earth, rather than a shift in His inherent nature. This does not demote Jesus to a former angelic being but confirms His divinity and His fulfillment of divine roles within the Trinity.
The Trinity doctrine explains that Jesus’ authority and relationship with the Father exist within a unity of divine nature, not in a hierarchy among created beings. Jesus, as the “Lord of lords and King of kings” (Revelation 19:16), holds supreme authority that includes all powers in heaven and earth. This authority surpasses that of any angel, including Michael.
Worship is exclusively directed toward God in Scripture. Yet, angels are commanded to worship Jesus (Hebrews 1:6). If Jesus were merely an archangel, He would be a created being, and such worship would contradict biblical monotheism. The fact that Jesus receives worship—an act reserved only for God—reinforces His divinity and distinguishes Him fundamentally from any angelic being, including Michael.
Revelation 5:13-14 emphasizes that “every creature in heaven and on earth” worships “the One on the throne and the Lamb,” signifying that Jesus shares in God’s divine worship, honor, and glory. This dual worship of the Father and the Son aligns with Trinitarian theology, underscoring Jesus’ divine nature as equal with the Father rather than as an exalted angel.
The argument that Michael the archangel is a prior form or role of Jesus is unsupported by Scripture. Key points include:
- Hebrews 1 clearly distinguishes Jesus from all angels and affirms His unique Sonship, declaring that no angel has been given this status.
- Jesus’ divine authority is inherent and existed before His earthly ministry, with His post-resurrection exaltation being a public recognition of His divine role.
- Worship and authority unique to God are directed toward Jesus, confirming His divinity and eternal Sonship, not an angelic status.
In conclusion, Scripture provides strong evidence that Jesus and Michael are distinct. Jesus is the eternal Son, fully divine and co-equal with the Father, whereas Michael remains an angelic being, created and subordinate to God.

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