Ray Franz.....LIAR?

by integ 138 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Insofar as Greenlees and Chitty are concerned, AlanF and others provided extensive info last year at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/5466/1.ashx

    integ, Ray's credibility is as much a matter of the receptivity of the reader as it is the documentation and tone of COC and ISOCF. Your question reminded me of the "over 500 at one time" eye-witnesses that are recorded as seeing the resurrected Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15: 5, 6) Even the WTS notes that many scholars attribute these post-resurrection experiences to "mass ecstasy." (w3/15/01 p. 4) Where do we draw the line? How many witnesses, and what types of credentials for those witnesses, are required before an historic account becomes "credible?" Sheesh, the Mormons only have 7 eye-witnesses for the golden plates, but that's good enough proof for several million people.

    What it boils down to is "what do I want to believe, or not believe?" Most JWs don't want to believe that Ray, or any other "apostate," is telling the truth; therefore, in their own minds the bar will be set as high as it needs to be to reject whatever evidence (WTS-letterhead communications, personal testimonies from hundreds of others who "were there," etc) is offered.

    My experience: just keep casting that bread out on the water...let them take whatever they will, whenever they can. In my case, it took over 10 years for the accumulating evidence to break through to me, and I fought it every step of the way.

    Craig

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Debating with a Jehovah’s Witness is like being in a pissing contest with a skunk . . . . . except a skunk knows when to quit.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Trying to reason with a Jehovah’s Witness is like trying to reason with a drunk . . . . . except tomorrow the drunk may sober up.

  • Swan
    Swan

    Joy, Integ wrote:

    and after perusing the first couple of chapters

    So she didn't actually read the book. We don't even know how well she "perused" the chapter she did look at. How can she tell the tone of a man she's never met and whose words she never actually read? Easy. Prejudice. Her mind was already made up. It is her loss.

    I found his tone deeply humble and candid, but I actually read the whole book.

    Tammy

  • JH
    JH

    I received my copy of the book today. I ordered it late last week. Over 400 pages to read... *this should take me 2 months* Crisis of Conscience-4th Edition.

  • DFWnonJW
    DFWnonJW

    JH, if the topics interest you even in the slightest, you ought to be able to read it in about two days! (only half joking)

  • integ
    integ

    I don't know what it will take to get through to these staunch JW''s. I would'nt care about all this, except for the fact that my family is so "in". I'm in a tight spot. I guess I ought to just let it be, and hope that it takes care of itself...What choice do I have? Should I go to Brooklyn and start a coup. I wish someone had the guts up there to do SOMETHING, those that are there have the only opportunity to make something drastic happen, and by drastic, I don't mean asassinate the Gb, I mean EXPOSE. They have a moral responsibility to do so. Do they have the guts? Not so far. Do I have the guts?......I'm working on it.

    Thanks,

    Integ.

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    An abundance of witnesses to the GB's crimes in 1979-1980 is available. I knew Ray at Bethel, documented a lot of the same things he says while he was there, and after he left I took many notes from the private Bethel elders meetings where Schroeder and others were ranting and raving and put them in a tract I wrote in 1980, which, along with my letter of resignation, predated Franz' book by a year. I was actually the first insider to write publicly about what happened, and that's how my work got started.

    http://www.freeminds.org/history/whathapp.htm

    http://www.freeminds.org/history/critical.htm

    http://www.freeminds.org/history/gbletter.htm

    http://www.freeminds.org/history/watters.htm

    http://www.freeminds.org/bethel/bethel.htm

    Then there was Cris and Norma Sanchez, Ed Dunlap, Tom and Gloria Cabeen, Mark Quackenbush, and the list goes on. We have many of the testimonies on cassette. Compare them for inaccuracies, and you will find the stories match quite well!

    Randy Watters

    http://www.freeminds.org

  • KGB
    KGB

    joy2befree,

    Actually I did get to read some of his second book but it was barrowed and the person that loaned it to me had a friend he wanted to read so I said I know enough about them already and this person needs it more than I so I gave it back but only got to read about half way or so.

  • kgfreeperson
    kgfreeperson

    No it won't--I found it a very fast read and I don't have the background you do.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit