Are we still going to Karaoke tonight?
Is that anywhere near Glasgow?
HS
Ray Franz.....LIAR?
by integ 138 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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hillary_step
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amac
Integ -
Actually Swordy said he was tired and wanted to stick to beer & pizza at his house. See you there around 7pm.
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Earnest
I was one of many who found it difficult to believe the report in Time magazine of February 22, 1982 (p.66) that simply eating a meal with Gregerson was the "technical infraction for which Franz was finally disfellowshipped". This was not the way the Christian congregation I knew and loved behaved. When RF published CoC I was pleased to be able to get more background, to put events in context. CoC did not bowl me over. I had questions which RF answered with great courtesy and thoroughness. I took a sabbatical to verify what I could and then sat back and watched.
Now this is what I found interesting. A number of publications have been written about the WTS and their beliefs. For example, James Penton wrote about the history of the movement in Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses. The WTS produced a history of the movement, Jehovah's Witnesses -- Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, which was relatively candid and a source for JWs digging up the past. Carl Jonsson wrote a book (Gentile Times Reconsidered) questioning the chronology of the "Gentile Times". The WTS addressed some of the issues raised in an appendix to chapter 14 of the book Let Your Kingdom Come.
However, when it comes to the issues that Ray Franz raised they have either been ignored or are reflected in some of the major doctrinal changes since RF left. For example, he spoke about the difficulty the GB had in agreeing what the generation was and when it began. We now have the teaching that the meaning of the term is completely different to what was previously believed. He spoke about discussions on why alternative service (to joining the army) was not acceptable. We now accept that as a Christian option. So while we do not have two witnesses who will testify about the accuracy of what he wrote, everything that has happened since (including his refusal to advertise his books on sites that castigate the WTS) strongly supports his claims.
Earnest
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minimus
Hi Earnest, I thought you were pro Watchtower. Am I incorrect?
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JT
SOJ
this post of yours was just too good to let pass, so well here we go--
SOJ says:
-How about testimony from Harold Jackson, Liverance, Baltasar Perla, Karl Adams, Joel Adams, D. Mercante, Robert Wallen, and David Olson.
When i read the names he rattled off i almost wanted to laugh- 5 of these guys were my "New boy" instructor- these guys represent the men who have achieved the highest levels in the org short of being a GB- now
so here we have JOE Blow Publisher (SOJ) saying:
I have had the pleasure of asking some questions to these brothers about what went on duing the 1979-1980 era in Bethel.
now anyone who has been an elder knows if any joe blow publisher asks questions about a Judical case that has been handled in the congo is looked at like they must be a --"Damn Fool"--- coming to the elders to ask QUESTIONS about a judical case
so here we have the Most important judical case handled in the organization in the last 100yrs since the days Rutherford stole the WT company from the board of directors and he is going to Waltz up to the most powerful men in the org and he "Actually" expected them to give the "INSIDE" DETAILS, is this guy a "JackA$$" or what- yes I realize i might be in some violation of site rules, but i just could let this slide by
so when he approached any of these guys or anyone on thier level and ask:
"Tell me about the Ray Franz case" they must have thought he was out of his "Fu%king mind --to excuse my French
SOJ first of all such a case would not be discussed with some low level publisher like you - even among the "Heavies" at bethel they were even afraid to talk about what went down- let me tell you why your comments are a joke
I was at bethel when Greenless was kicked out - i was in lower dinner 2 tables over from the Head Table, GB member Potizer was presiding that morning- he stated i have an annoucement to make to the bethel family
"This is to inform the the bethel family that Leo Greenleves is NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE BETHEL FAMILY" then he stated
"AND THE MATTER IS CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
there was a hush and silents in all the dining rooms and i had buddies up at Wt Farms and it was the same up there as well
if there are any bethelites online who were there that day they will tell you the same story- after the prayer everyone left the dining room without a sound - everyone was in shock
by mid morning the word was getting around that he had been involved in some improper conduct with a younger male -
my point is this type of issue IS NOT AND WILL NOT BE DISCUSSED with some joe blow jw who just happens to ask"
"So tell me what happened in the 80's with old ray"
the very men you named are experts at putting the very best face on wt and all of it's policies
my dear friend i feel so sorry for you, for here you on the net, with access to information and discussion about the organization that could never take place in ANY CONGO
yet you try so hard to hold on to a dying cause-
while i commmend you for AT LEAST being willing to discuss issues involving the org-
for we all know that you come here at GREAT RISK TO YOURSELF-- ( you do know that you coould be DFed for just being here don't you ???)
in fact you are in direct VIOLATION of the very instructions that according to the Org jah has issued forth thru is mouth pc the FDS
so please spare us the "Fake Loyality" to God's visible organization-- instead use your time here to educate yourself on the org like we have
Ray Franz is really of no importance in the real scheme of things for he has made no claims unlike the WT/FDS/Writing Dept/Cheese and Cracker men
but i guess i should be happy that you are at least open minded enough to continue to read-
in the local congo
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gumby
Damn JT.......that was killer!
Gumby
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DannyBear
My man JT!!!!!
***so here we have the Most important judical case handled in the organization in the last 100yrs since the days Rutherford stole the WT company from the board of directors and he is going to Waltz up to the most powerful men in the org and he "Actually" expected them to give the "INSIDE" DETAILS, is this guy a "JackA$$" or what- yes I realize i might be in some violation of site rules, but i just could let this slide by***
Damnation JT.......me thinks SOJ gets your point!
Sheer desperation will drive the average joeblow jw to manufacture any excuse to justify 'god's organizations' conduct. You really must pity a guy/gal like SOJ whose brain cells have been saturated with Watchtower 'speak' for far to many years.
Had to laugh about your INSIDE DETAILS..it used to piss me off as an elder, when other elder's within the same congregation, would pull that 007 shit and not share info with each other. It was almost a status symbol, who knew more than the other guy. What joke the whole silly hiearchy of jwdom is!
Glad you couldn't let SOJ's ridiculous assertions pass.
Danny
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hillary_step
Nail on the head again JT. Good post.
HS
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Earnest
Hi minimus...there are still many beliefs which I share with JWs and I currently associate (although not in any representative capacity). I take the view that Christians are not an organization or religion but people united in faith and so am not pro Watchtower in the sense you mean. I can only believe and support those teachings I am convinced are true, and so support a particular belief rather than the whole body of beliefs. While I do not agree with everything Ray Franz has written in CoC and ISoCF, I am quite convinced as to his sincerety and honesty and thank God for such a man.
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JT
Sheer desperation will drive the average joeblow jw to manufacture any excuse to justify 'god's organizations' conduct. You really must pity a guy/gal like SOJ whose brain cells have been saturated with Watchtower 'speak' for far to many years.
YOU MAKE An excellent point, we have seen this type of poster so many times after while it is like clock work- a jw is presented with powerful arguments, proof, documentation, facts, even stuff they can read for themsleves YET they will continue to say:
"THE KING HAS CLOTHES ON"
RECALL reading these 2 links:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/7798/1.ashx
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html
where this issue was discussed as to how BAD AND WRONG BELIEFS JUST WONT DIE despite tons of evidence
the therory in this article in my view does make alot of sense
it reminds me of the "Shopping Cart" story i related awhile back, but as long as he comes to this site THERE IS STILL HOPE
IT IS Not until he is like many in our families who JUST REFUSE TO EVEN DISCUSS THE ISSUES so i guess as loing as he reads he is actually learning
the funny part is when he finially gets it he is going to be mad as hell at all the time he wasted defending a BOGUS PROGRAM
Had to laugh about your INSIDE DETAILS..it used to piss me off as an elder, when other elder's within the same congregation, would pull that 007 shit and not share info with each other. It was almost a status symbol, who knew more than the other guy. What joke the whole silly hiearchy of jwdom is!
SO TRUE INDEED the thought that one knew something that others didnot was the way in which we made up for our loss of good and meaningful careers and education and just overall quality of life
this watchtower title and position was ALL WE HAD TO HOLD ON TO
Glad you couldn't let SOJ's ridiculous assertions pass.
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT i was not going to let him try to blow that smoke into our eyes
one fo the CONSTANT mistakes i see jw make when they come to this site is they FAIL COMPLETELY TO KNOW THIER AUDIENCE
many here are not some 3 month bible study or newly baptized person, many here are lifers MANY OF US LIVED 1975 not just read about it
many here have held positions at all levels in the org which provided us with insight into the org that the avg jw JUST WILL NEVER SEE
so instead of listening and learning from those who may have something to share about that they were able to see or come to know due to their position, these jw act like they are talking to some new person off the street
many of us male and female gave literally the best years of our life to this org, - so WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
one of the things i have tried very hard to do is to share with others what i saw , heard and came to realize due to being part of the wt machinery
if there was ever a Society Man it was I- so when folks start shooting off from the mouth many times it clearly shows JUST HOW LITTLE THEY KNOW ABOUT THE ORG THEY HAVE ENTRUSTED THEIR FUTURE TO
how sad