Ray Franz.....LIAR? (page 8)

Joker10

Why didnt Franz take legal action when he was "UNFAIRLY" expelled? That's what I want to know.

hillary_step

Joker10,

What kind of legal action did you have in mind?

HS

How can I be sure that all you anti-WT people aren't very clever agents of Satan who know how to be persuasive? If the WT uses dirty "tactics" of persuasion who is to say you don't? It is easy to fake humility, especially via the written medium. The people in the organization do it all the time. Ray Franz could have done it too for all I know. I never even heard his name before I started doing research on my own. I haven't been in Bethel, so I can't cross reference what is being claimed here with my own personal experience. You seem to be coming down pretty hard on SOJ for not being an insider. If I see a person trying to discredit somebody else's argument like that, I find it more difficult to trust that they aren't just making up stories for the purpose of persuading others. How is the average JW going to verify that the authors of these forum messages actually were in Bethel?

Do not get me wrong, I actually approach this discussion with an open mind, even though I may be come off as otherwise. Please feel free to answer my skeptical comments. We can argue and become friends at the same time.

I think this is an excellent forum. I want to thank the people who run this place.

Joker10

To hillary_step : Couldnt Franz take these brothers to court because he couldn't appeal the descicion of his expulsion? I've heard stories of elders not daring to disfellowhip one because because of fear that somebody may take legal action against them for mistreatment and injustification of the matters. Why didn't Franz do that?

Joker10

Very good qyestions, Particle.

hillary_step

Hello,

You seem to be coming down pretty hard on SOJ for not being an insider.

No, Sword is criticized for not answering difficult questions posed to him, while calling those who post on this Board 'evil'. Sword is in denial. many of us understand that feeling as we have walked the walk before.

Your comments regarding a international Satanic agenda to discredit the WTS by the means of these discussion Boards is paranoid in the extreme, and I suspect was not meant to be taken seriously.

You note regarding the devious ability of some persons to fake humility,

Ray Franz could have done it too for all I know.

Why not write to Mr. Franz. I am sure that he will be pleased, despite his frail state, to answer you directly. Unlike the anonymous researchers in Brookyln, who hide behind committees and a heirarchy, he has had open access to his life via telephone and mail for decades since his departure from the WTS. I wonder if you would have the same freedom to question, or even speak to some of the people that Mr. Franz mentions in his book. Perhaps this fact alone speaks many volumes.

How is the average JW going to verify that the authors of these forum messages actually were in Bethel?

Well, they can seek to speak to them personally, by private messaging. They can check their testimonies. They can ask their companions, many such avenues are open if a person is truly wishing to know what is true and what is not. Obviously they would need feel comfortable with your own identity first.

What is frustrating is that many JW's and XJW's feel that the touchstone of whether the WTS is fatally flawed doctrinally rests with Mr. Franz. Franz publicized the inner workings of the GB and showed the world what awkward, inadequate, tiny, institutionalized men these persons really were, most of them barely adequate Bible Students. The fact of flawed doctrine is not open to questions of Satanic agendas, or personality traits, but a decent level of research with no prejudice attached shows this to be the case quite quickly.

For example. The GB claim to speak for God. I challenged Sword recently to produce just three interpretations of Scriptural prophecy that the WTS had got correct the past fifty-years. I am still waiting for him, or any other JW apologist to answer this challenge.

Best regards - HS

onacruse

Hi, Particle, and welcome to the forum

Your skepticism is well-taken, but also carries with it the potential of irrational denial, imo. That's why I commented above that "it's a matter of what, and whether, one wants to believe" something. All the documentation and personal testimony on the planet will fail to persuade someone who intransigiently (perhaps because of brain-washing) insists that "it just can't be true." JT and TrotaFox illustrate that point very well.

otoh, we can also fall into the trap of accepting anything that fits with "this is what I want to believe."

For myself, I have (any many many others here even more than me) personally seen and experienced enough of what Ray says, to have good reason to credit him with as much honesty and objectivity as is possible for any author I've ever studied.

Craig

hillary_step

Joker10,

The WTS has never lost a case bought against them for disfellowshipping a person, though the publicity they recieved might not exactly have suited them. The WTS manipulated their own Disfellowshipping doctrine to ensure that they could disfellowship Raymond Franz without fear of legal repurcussions.

Many elders would rather leave the issue be than be involved in court cases. When they do get involved the WTS invariably wins the case owing to the protection afforded religions under the US, UK and European Consititutions. This will not last for ever.

HS

AlanF

Particle, you can't be sure of anything, when it comes right down to it. Nevertheless, intelligent people can usually recognize the ring of truth, especially when a thing is examined over a period of time. Perhaps the best way to see if what people say on this forum has the ring of truth -- and I don't mean everything that is said, not by a long shot! -- is to get to know them personally by observing their posts, getting to know them in chat, and most importantly, contacting those personally who you may resonate with.

I don't know how you yourself could confirm that any poster has been in Bethel, except by getting to know them. If you know little about life inside Bethel, then you really don't know enough to evaluate anyone's claims. Merely attempting to be objective by considering all sides will not do this. But just as you may not be able to confirm such claims, neither will you be able to refute them.

A good way to evaluate posters is to see how open they are. Do they answer all of your questions? Or do they sidestep difficult ones? Do you come away feeling that your comments have been answered, or do you get the feeling that something has been left out? Naturally you'll find all sorts of people on any discussion forum, but I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out who you can rely on. Once you start figuring it out, you can ask for information that could confirm what the poster claims, and then do what you need to verify it for yourself.

As for deciding whether some argument is just a persuasive tactic of Satan or whoever, you already have the mental wherewithal to do that. You simply evaluate the argument based on your objective accumulation of the facts that are presented in support of the claim. Note that a true argument is true whether Satan himself or God himself presents it.

AlanF

JT

How can I be sure that all you anti-WT people aren't very clever agents of Satan who know how to be persuasive? If the WT uses dirty "tactics" of persuasion who is to say you don't? It is easy to fake humility, especially via the written medium. The people in the organization do it all the time. Ray Franz could have done it too for all I know. I never even heard his name before I started doing research on my own. I haven't been in Bethel, so I can't cross reference what is being claimed here with my own personal experience. You seem to be coming down pretty hard on SOJ for not being an insider. If I see a person trying to discredit somebody else's argument like that, I find it more difficult to trust that they aren't just making up stories for the purpose of persuading others. How is the average JW going to verify that the authors of these forum messages actually were in Bethel?
Do not get me wrong, I actually approach this discussion with an open mind, even though I may be come off as otherwise. Please feel free to answer my skeptical comments. We can argue and become friends at the same time.
I think this is an excellent forum. I want to thank the people who run this place.

since you are a new person to the board your comments are to be fully understandable, for it shows you don't just accept WHAT SOMEONE SAYS and that is excellent,

while it is true you will NOT be able to verify all the personal conversations that ray had with other bethel members- as you continue to do your research you will begin to see the pattern of doctrine formation that the wt uses in it's developement of dogmas

so continue your research you are on the right track- don't take anyone's word instead research it yourself and this way you can confirm it for your own peace of mind

welcome

Ray Franz.....LIAR?

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