Hell

by onacruse 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  onacruse

  I was recently asked about my opinion re: hell.

  As a born-and-raised JW I obviously never believed in hell-fire torment. Actually, I REFUSE to believe in such a thing. For many years my favorite response to the idea was "I would rather burn in hell than worship a God who would create such a place."

  I recently came across an interesting book, The Fire That Consumes (Edward Fudge, 1982). At first, I took the title to suggest that the author was going to "prove" that there is hellfire. Much to my surprise, it was exactly the opposite; he goes through the Bible, literally proof-text by proof-text, and shows, in an historical and linguistic analysis, the ambiguity about this doctrine. The foreword by (the late) F.F. Bruce (of the Bruce and Metzger team) says: "The New Testament answer to this question is much less explicit than is frequently supposed."

  Your thoughts? Do you believe in hellfire? If you don't, is it because you were raised as a JW? Are there other religions that explicitly teach that hell is just a "state of non-existence?"

  Craig
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  Gopher

  Do I believe in hellfire?

  HELL NO !!

  Was it because I was raised a JW? Well yes. But also I truly believe it is a fiction invented to "scare" people into doing what a religious leader says they should do.

  That makes the JW teaching of Armageddon equally egregious. It is a controlling teaching as well. BTW, if the JW's were right about Armageddon, it would have already come. They are plain wrong about it.
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  onacruse

  Hey there, sqeaks!

  As a hypothetical: suppose you or I had been raised Baptist? Or Calvinist? Believing virtually from our birth-bed that there was a literal hell-fire? Wouldn't we both have considered it an emancipation to finally not believe such a doctrine?

  Or would we? As you suggest, hell-fire doctrine is a controlling belief very much like apocalypticism. But in either case the "trigger" that makes it all work is fear. In our own minds, fear of everlasting torment and fear of everlasting non-existence can be equally controlling. Or, fear of impending Armaggedon and fear that "things will never change" can be equally debilitating.

  So, if I may ask: how did you get rid of the fear?

  Craig (of the "I'll tell you if you tell me first" class )
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  Gopher

  Ok bruiser,

  How did I get rid of the "fear" of Armageddon?

  The first step was by eliminating exposure to the fear-mongering information purveyed at the Kingdom Hall and in WT Society publications. Eliminating such slanted information was an important first step in regaining my equilibrium in my thoughts.

  Then I learned more about the history of the Armageddon theory as proposed by the Watchtower Society. Seeing that they had strongly implied that the end was to come in 1914, then 1918, then "soon" after they announced (during the 1920's) that millions then living would NEVER die, then after WW2, then after 1975, and then finally by the end of the 20th century (as per the original printing of the 1/1/89 Issue of "Watchtower" magazine), made me realize that this Armageddon theory was just guesswork on the part of the Society.

  Which leads to the next logical question, why do they keep insisting Armageddon is around the corner when they've been so consistently wrong about it in the past? The answer became obvious... the WT Society runs a religion based on guesswork about life's questions, which makes it similar to all other religions in that vein.

  So instead of living life with fear based on misinformation, I decided to just take each day as it comes and make the best of it, and to plan for the future but not based on a false sense of "urgency" based on cult guesswork.
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  onacruse

  the WT Society runs a religion based on guesswork about life's questions, which makes it similar to all other religions in that vein.

  Yes, yes, yes!!! That's exactly why I referenced the comments I did to start this topic: the "guesswork," the uncertainty about what the Bible says (or appears to say). For any so-called Christian religion to insist that the Bible absolutely teaches hell-fire torment is nothing short of intellectual dishonesty, and is almost certainly nothing less than a control mechanism. The same, of course, applies to the "Armageddon is right around the corner" ploy, or the "comply or we'll DF your ass" policy.

  imo, the hardest thing to overcome in facing a doctrine like hell-fire is the personal fear we have. Once that fear is gone, the beliefs take care of themselves, and we end up, like you say,

  I decided to just take each day as it comes and make the best of it, and to plan for the future but not based on a false sense of "urgency" based on cult guesswork.

  That's the ticket. Oh, and that way of life happens to be Scriptural too.

  Craig
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  MegaDude

  I read The Fire That Consumes and it seemed to me the author was suggesting there is a hell but it's temporary, a holding place for evil people until the final judgment. Who knows what the hell happens after this life? I don't spend much time thinking about it anymore because there isn't any evidence in my opinion to prove an afterlife, be it heaven or hell.

  I do believe the Bible teaches that a literal hell exists. The JWs always made a big deal that hell was an ancient pagan demonic doctrine, but if you ask any JW why Jesus would use a pagan demonic doctrine in teaching people, vis a vis The Rich Man and Lazerus story, they have no good answer.
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  Gopher

  Can a thread about hell turn into a FLAME WAR?? Only if hell is hot!!

  But I thought that the WT Society's explanation (found in the "Live Forever" book) about why the "rich man and Lazarus" parable could not be taken to mean a literal hell was quite good. They said that the tormented rich man begged for a "drop of water" to be put on his tongue. But a drop of water would simply evaporate in a fiery-hot location before ever it reached the rich man's tongue. He should have asked for a bucket of water instead, if he wanted real relief.

  To go further, their explanation that the torment was spiritual, as was the death of the two characters in the story, is interesting and viable. The two characters would picture the wealthy class and the common, downtrodden "people of the earth". When Jesus came to preach, they died as to their old status -- the common people were getting attention from God's own son, whereas the wealthy class were being tormented by the Kingdom message that Jesus was teaching, to the point where they eventually snuffed him out.

  This explanation was one of the few times I thought the WT Society "nailed" it. However, some might say that they went out of their way to turn the hose on hell by this explanation.

  I'm of the opinion that much of what the WT Society teaches is bogus, but in the case of hellfire they just happen to come down on the right side of the issue.
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  teejay

  >>> there isn't any evidence in my opinion to prove an afterlife, be it heaven or hell. -- MegaDude

  My thoughts on the topic, exactly.
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  wasasister

  My humble contribution:

  All authority needs some sort of clout to enforce "rules" of conduct. Parents spank (or otherwise punish), governments imprison or behead. Religious leaders - not wanting to be left out - had to come up with something equally threatening.

  It becomes especially difficult if the rules you are trying to enforce are ambiguous and infractions easily hidden. (Maybe the King can't see what goes on in your bedroom, but God can!) The resulting punishment is invisible as well, tucked safely away in an afterlife nobody comes back to tell about.

  Almost all cultures have some sort of invisible club to hold over the heads of believers, whether it be Armageddon, Hellfire, or coming back in the next life as a sofa cushion in Opra Winfrey's house.

  As to the Bible being ambigous, I can't imagine why I thought it was perfectly lucid when I was a devoted Dub. Reading it now is almost like trying to apply Nostradamus to modern times: the words are flexible enough to mean just about anything. This is especially true when Bible thumpers try to make it prove the Trinity, Immortality of the Soul, Hellfire, or that Geriatric Sexist Pig Bullies are the Faithful and Discreet Slave.

  I'm with you, Ona. I would flip a middle finger to any deity who would torture people eternally.

  Wasa
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  onacruse

  mega and teejay, so then why would a man like Bruce, with obviously exceptional intellectual capacity ( professor of Biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, England) even consider that there is such a thing as hell-fire torment? Now, we could at least allow that believing certain things about afterlife are simply a matter of personal and unprovable "faith," but hell-fire? Sheesh, it would seem to me that if we wanted to indulge ourselves in fantasies about the future, we'd latch onto a somewhat more pleasant scenario.

  I didn't read all of The Fire That Consumes, but I think you're right mega. It seems like the author satisfies himself with saying "we'll have to wait until we get there, and then we'll find out."

  wasa:

  coming back in the next life as a sofa cushion in Opra Winfrey's house.

  And here I thought hell-fire was the worst punishment that could possibly be meted out. LOL

  Craig