Hell

by onacruse 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

UnDisfellowshipped

Brummie,
I agree with you completely - the idea of Jesus suffering and burning in Hell is repulsive.
The people who teach that (such as Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn as you mentioned) are actually saying that Jesus Christ's Sacrifice and shed Blood on the Cross was NOT enough to save sinners, but that Jesus had to suffer more in Hell for 3 days. They even teach that Jesus took on the nature of Satan, and became Satan's slave for 3 days in Hell!
I'd like to see that shown from the Bible.
Here is a very good Website I found on this subject: http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1825.html
justhuman

Hell is a place Away from God that all. God does not torture anyone.
The ones who choose to live away from God they are Tortured because they desided to stay way from the Eternal Light.
In Revelation it is clear at the last verses that outside are the liars and the fornicators from the Gods Kindom were is dark.
Jesus is the Light, and been away from Him it is a TORTURE
DJ

HEATHEN:
Starscream----- I was mentioning the part of jesus actually dying because recently DJ posted a thread on the trinity and claimed that jesus did not actually die because he believed that God cannot die as a part of the trinity doctrine
Where did you get that? I NEVER said that Jesus didn't die! You are mistaken my friend. You ought to make sure of things before you spread false rumours, ok? dj
heathen

Undisfellowshipped--------- It's all in how you look at the scripture you mentioned . The WT states that ( I am using the new world translation here) in the instance of jesus hanging on a stake promising paradise to the crimminal on the stake beside him, It should read Truely I tell you this day, you will be with me in paradise .In other words jesus was making a promise that would be fullfilled on judgement day .It is clear to me that all the dead are resurected at a later date .The rich man lazurus is a parable in which Jesus is using the rich man to represent the the religious leaders who where corrupt and catered to the wealthy jews while ignoring the poor jews. I think that Jesus himself is the bosom of Abraham and the firey torment on the rich man is the judgement that Jesus brings on them in a symbolic way.It is a pretty sound arguement to me .
DJ--- Are you sure you didn't say that Jesus never died and was transformed into an angel at the time that his body expired ? Kinda like what undisfellowshipped is saying? I will have to go back and check.I think that Jesus was literally dead for 3 days then he was resurected as a spirit who then raised his earthly body.
DJ

Heathen....
No. Transformed into an angel? That is the wt crap. I believe that Jesus dies in the flesh (his body died) but He obviously lived in the spirit while He went and preached to the spirits in prison aka hell. After those three days His body was resurrected and He appeared to many. You aren't listening, my bro!
love, dj
This is my last post for a while anyway.....atleast the summer!! Maybe we will cross paths again...bye Undis!! love to you, dj
onacruse

I've not had time to collect the Scriptural argumentation about Jesus's "journey to hell," but perhaps the following thoughts will suffice to indicate my quandry about the Biblical issues:
1) Jesus "died" in the sense that every human dies (insofar as the usage of NT Greek words is concerned). So then, it seems to me there are 2 possibilities:
a) Jesus's body ceased to exist, but "something" continued to exist afterwards. In this way, his "Divinity" can be preserved, but at the same time the traditionalist idea about conscious torment in hell in the afterlife (as however experienced by that same "something" that survives the decease of the physical organism) is also preserved;
b) When Jesus's body ceased to exist, so did all other aspects of his being. In this case, he cannot have been Divine, but on the plus side hell becomes synonymous with simple "non-existence."
So, either one believes in the Deity of Christ, and therefore also the real possibility of hell-torment...or one believes that Jesus was nothing more than a mere man, and we all simply die when we die.
But if he was nothing more than a mere man, then why take his words as anything more than the thoughts of a mere man, or consider him to be "the way, the truth, and the life"?
Am I being too simplistic?
Craig
heathen

ona------- I think the 3rd alternative is more likely . Jesus was a man as he walked the earth but also he was the most holy man ever to exist .He was the son of God but not the incarnation of the God the hebrews worshipped . He was granted authority to forgive sins and such, he did not do anything of his own initiative but only what he was instructed to do as he is quoted as saying this . It did dawn on me how tightly nit the trinity doctrine and hell fire are as I read the replies to this thread in a bigger way than previously . I believe he died as a human but was raised by another sepperate deity and then was granted all authority of heaven and earth as again he is quoted as saying . It's been interesting but I still hold to my original conclusions on the matter as it seems it makes more sense .The original trinitarians tried their best to alter the the writings so they would reflect the church dogma rather than translate it in an accurate way . There are just too many contredicting scriptures to the trinity to make any sense out of the trinity .
UnDisfellowshipped

OnACruise said:
I've not had time to collect the Scriptural argumentation about Jesus's "journey to hell," but perhaps the following thoughts will suffice to indicate my quandry about the Biblical issues:
1) Jesus "died" in the sense that every human dies (insofar as the usage of NT Greek words is concerned). So then, it seems to me there are 2 possibilities:
a) Jesus's body ceased to exist, but "something" continued to exist afterwards. In this way, his "Divinity" can be preserved, but at the same time the traditionalist idea about conscious torment in hell in the afterlife (as however experienced by that same "something" that survives the decease of the physical organism) is also preserved;
b) When Jesus's body ceased to exist, so did all other aspects of his being. In this case, he cannot have been Divine, but on the plus side hell becomes synonymous with simple "non-existence."
So, either one believes in the Deity of Christ, and therefore also the real possibility of hell-torment...or one believes that Jesus was nothing more than a mere man, and we all simply die when we die.
But if he was nothing more than a mere man, then why take his words as anything more than the thoughts of a mere man, or consider him to be "the way, the truth, and the life"?
Am I being too simplistic?
Craig

Craig, the Bible says absolutely nothing about Jesus being tormented in Hell.
I don't even know why anyone (such as Benny Hinn, etc) teaches that Jesus was tormented in Hell.
The Bible says Jesus never committed a sin.
The Bible says that sinners who do not believe in Jesus and God, are the only ones who are tormented in Hell, so why would Jesus have gone to be tormented in Hell?.
Also, to say that Jesus was tormented in Hell is saying that His Sacrifice on the Cross was not enough to save sinners. Jesus on the Cross, right before He died, said "It is finished!" (or according to some Translations, "The debt has been discharged!"). So, "it was finished" on the Cross, Jesus would definitely not have needed to suffer anymore torment in Hell.
The Bible is very clear that it is Jesus Christ's death and shed Blood on the Cross that saves people from their sins.
Jesus Himself said that He was going to "Paradise" immediately after His death. (I will try to post more info on this soon)
The Bible also teaches that when normal people die, their soul/spirit goes to one of two places: To be comforted or to be tormented.
If Jesus was only a human, He was either (1) a lunatic or (2) a liar.
Jesus claimed to be the following:
1: The Only-Begotten Son of God
2: The "I AM" (See Exodus 3:14)
3: The Christ / Messiah
4: The Resurrection
5: The Life
6: The Truth
7: The Way
8: The Good Shepherd
9: The Lord from Heaven
10: God
11: The King of Israel
12: The Lamb of God
13: The True Bread of Life from Heaven
14: The Light of the World
15: The Savior of the World

Also, while on Earth, Jesus claimed that He:
1: Was Omnipresent
2: Was Omniscient
3: Could read minds and hearts
4: Fully knew everything about The Father
5: Existed before Abraham
6: Existed before the world was created
__________________________________________
Heathen said:
ona------- I think the 3rd alternative is more likely . Jesus was a man as he walked the earth but also he was the most holy man ever to exist .He was the son of God but not the incarnation of the God the hebrews worshipped . He was granted authority to forgive sins and such, he did not do anything of his own initiative but only what he was instructed to do as he is quoted as saying this . It did dawn on me how tightly nit the trinity doctrine and hell fire are as I read the replies to this thread in a bigger way than previously . I believe he died as a human but was raised by another sepperate deity and then was granted all authority of heaven and earth as again he is quoted as saying . It's been interesting but I still hold to my original conclusions on the matter as it seems it makes more sense .The original trinitarians tried their best to alter the the writings so they would reflect the church dogma rather than translate it in an accurate way . There are just too many contredicting scriptures to the trinity to make any sense out of the trinity .
Please see what I posted above.
If Jesus was only a human, then He was (1) a lunatic or (2) a liar.
He certainly would not have been "Holy" if He was a liar or a lunatic.
heathen

Undisfellowship -------- I don't think jesus was a liar or a lunatic. He was the promised messiah and a prophet .He was not omnipresent as he only existed in the body like a human he was not omniscient as he claimed to not know conscerning the day and hour of the conclusion of this system of things but mentioned his father in heaven was the only one who knew this. It was through his obedience to God in proving satan a liar and dying as the promised messiah that he was granted a status of God . The bible does say he made himself less than the angles and then became exalted over the angels . To me this means he was human when he was less than the angels and was made God when he was exalted over the angels.
UnDisfellowshipped

Heathen said:
Undisfellowship -------- I don't think jesus was a liar or a lunatic. He was the promised messiah and a prophet.
But according to you, was Jesus on Earth the Only-Begotten Son of God?
Heathen said:
He was not omnipresent as he only existed in the body like a human
This is what the Bible says:
John 3:13: And no one has gone up into Heaven except He who came down out of Heaven, the Son of Man, who is in Heaven.
Can you explain how Jesus was on Earth and in Heaven at the same time? (by the way, this is just one of the many Verses that the New World Translation has changed).
Matthew 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in My Name, I am there in their midst."
Can you explain, how, on Earth, Jesus was in the midst of anywhere where two or three gathered in His Name?
John 1:47: Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said about him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!"
John 1:48: Nathanael said to Him, "From where do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, while you were under the fig tree, I saw you."John 1:49: Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"
John 1:50: Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you, 'I saw you under the fig tree,' do you believe? You will see greater things than these."
Heathen said:
he was not omniscient as he claimed to not know conscerning the day and hour of the conclusion of this system of things but mentioned his father in heaven was the only one who knew this.
That is a good point.
But the fact that several people miss is that Jesus was 100% Human and 100% God while on Earth. He had two Natures - One Human and One Divine. That is the only way to explain the following so-called "contradictions":
Jesus (as a Human) does not know all things:
Mark 13:32: "But concerning that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
Jesus (as God) does know all things:
John 16:30: Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You. By this we believe that You came forth from God."
Jesus (as a Human) does not know all things:
Luke 2:52: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Jesus (as God) does know all things:
John 2:24: But Jesus did not trust Himself to them, because He knew all men,
John 2:25: and had no need that anyone should testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.
Luke 5:22: But when Jesus perceived their reasonings, He answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
Matthew 9:4: But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Matthew 12:25: But Jesus, knowing their thoughts ...
Mark 2:8: And immediately, when Jesus recognized in His spirit that they were reasoning thus among themselves, He said to them, "Why are you reasoning these things in your hearts?
Luke 6:8: But He knew their thoughts ...
Heathen said:
It was through his obedience to God in proving satan a liar and dying as the promised messiah that he was granted a status of God.
No. No one can be "granted" the "status" of being God. You either are THE GOD by Nature, or you are not really a god at all. There is no "in-between" God-level.
Satan was already proven a liar in God's eyes before Jesus came to Earth.
Think about this: Satan was proved to be a liar thousands of years ago!
Satan told Eve that she WOULD NOT DIE if she ate the forbidden fruit. Well, Satan was proved a liar (1) when Eve died spiritually, and (2) when Eve died physically.
Jesus came to Earth to die for the sins of all sinners who would believe in Him. That is the main message of the entire Bible -- Jesus Christ dying on the Cross to save all sinners who would believe in Him, and then Jesus coming again.
Heathen said:
The bible does say he made himself less than the angles and then became exalted over the angels . To me this means he was human when he was less than the angels and was made God when he was exalted over the angels.
You're right, the Bible does say that Jesus became "lower than angels" and was then exalted.
That is talking about Jesus taking on His Human Nature and coming to Earth as a Human.
This is what I believe:
Jesus Christ, as God The Son in Heaven, humbled Himself, added a Human Nature to Himself, and was born as a Perfect Sinless Mortal Human. His Divine Nature still existed, and all of the Fullness of His Divine Nature dwelt in His Body.
However, Jesus decided to rely almost completely on His Father and The Holy Spirit instead of using His own Divine Powers (I believe there are a few exceptions to that).
Jesus humbled Himself, Jesus took on the appearance of a Human Slave.
Jesus on earth, became lower than the angels, in the sense that, most of the time, He did not use His own Divine Powers. Jesus also experienced all of the limitations and weaknesses of being a Human Being.
Angels do not have those same limitations and weaknesses.
Jesus learned the experience of being obedient to His Father, just like a normal human does.
I believe Jesus hid His Divine glory while on Earth, in order to appear just like a normal Human Being.
If Jesus was not God in the Flesh, how do you explain the following?
Jesus claimed to be the following:
1: The Only-Begotten Son of God (John 3:16-18)
2: The "I AM" (John 8:58; Compare with Exodus 3:14)
3: The Christ / Messiah (John 4:25-26)
4: The Resurrection (John 11:25)
5: The Life (John 11:25)
6: The Truth (John 14:6)
7: The Way (John 14:6)
8: The Good Shepherd (John 10:11-14)
9: The Lord (John 13:13-14)
10: God (John 20:28-29)
11: The King of Israel (John 1:49-50)
12: The Lamb of God (John 1:29-36)
13: The True Bread of Life from Heaven (John 6:33-41)
14: The Light of the World (John 8:12)
15: The Savior (Luke 19:10; Luke 9:56)

Also, while on Earth, Jesus claimed that He:
1: Was Omnipresent
2: Was Omniscient
3: Could read minds and hearts
4: Fully knew everything about The Father
5: Existed before Abraham
6: Existed before the world was created

Hell

Share this