Hell

by onacruse 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Xena
    Xena

    Hell was being a JW

    I have a hard time reconciling a loving or even a non loving God with the hellfire doctrine. I had an interesting discussion with a friend regarding something like this...I like the way he explained it...

    Salvation is a reward for turning your life over to Christ, in whatever form you find him....if you don't turn your life over to him (and how this is done is a WHOLE other discussion) then you don't receive the reward and you just live your life and die....I like the concept of rewarding for the positive, rather than punishing the negative or indifferent.

    So simply put Hell is not receiving the reward of salvation...no more, no less...

    Course this is just a concept....I mean who really knows...

  • heathen
    heathen

    The hell doctrine was clearly an attempt by the church to scare people into obedience and was the basis of much inhumane suffering caused by those who wanted power over thought .IMO it never stopped anyone from commiting violent acts in the name of God but instead seemed to motivate them .

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    The Idea that Greek mythology influenced Christendom’s belief in a literal hell is only partially correct. Witnesses would have us believe that these beliefs were adopted sometime after the first century. In reality, Greek thought had already permeated Jewish thought prior to the first century. The fact that the NT was written in Greek demonstrates the extent of the influence.

    Jewish literature prior to the NT had already incorporated Greek ideas concerning Hell. But, according to Witnesses, the NT does not teach a literal hell, even when it clearly parallels these writings.

    The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha do not present a completely coherent picture of Hell, but the following is a general summary of their concepts:

    Hades contains several areas or compartments for the dead. The faithful will be received by Abraham in the area generally referred to as Paradise. The wicked will be sent to another area where they will be tormented (Interestingly, one of the pleasures of paradise will be the ability to observe the punishment of the wicked). The wicked are prevented from passing over to the Paradise side. All will be judged; the faithful will be resurrected to live again, while the wicked will be destroyed.

    The following quotes from the apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha should be sufficient to show that this foreign influence had already found it's way into Jewish thought years before the development of the New Testament.

    The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 10

    (1)Then the great angel came to me with the golden trumpet in his hand, and he blew it up to heaven. (2)Heaven opened from the place where the sun rises to where it sets, from the north to the south. (3)I saw the sea which I had seen at the bottom of Hades. Its waves came up to the clouds. (4)I saw all the souls sinking in it. I saw some whose hands were bound to their neck, with their hands and feet being fettered. (5)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who were bribed and they were given gold and silver until the souls of men were led astray." (6)And I saw others covered with mats of fire. (7)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who give money at interest, and they receive interest for interest." (8)And I also saw some blind ones crying out. And I was amazed when I saw all these works of God. (9)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are catechumens who heard the word of God, but they were not perfected in the work which they heard." (10) And I said to him, "Then do they not have repentance here?" He said, "Yes." (11)I said, "How long?" He said to me, "Until the day when the Lord will judge." (12)And I saw others with their hair on them. (13)I said, "Then there is hair and body in this place?" (14) He said, "Yes, the Lord gives body and hair to them as he desires."

    The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 10

    (1)And I also saw multitudes. He brought them forth. (2)As they looked at all of the torments they called out, praying before the Lord Almighty, saying, "We pray to you on account of those who are in all these torments so that you might have mercy on all of them." (3) And when I saw them, I said to the angel who spoke with me, "(Who are these?)" (4)He said, "These who beseech the Lord are Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. (5)Then at a certain hour daily they come forth with the great angel. He sounds a trumpet up to heaven and another sound upon the earth. (6)All the righteous hear the sound. They come running, praying to the Lord Almighty daily on behalf of these who are in all these torments."

    Testament of Abraham 12

    (1)While he was yet saying these things to me, behold (there were) two angels, with fiery aspect and merciless intention and relentless look, and they drove myriads of souls, mercilessly beating them with fiery lashes. (2)And the angel seized one soul. And they drove all the souls into the broad gate toward destruction. (3)Then we too followed the angels and we came inside that broad gate. (4)And between the two gates there stood a terrifying throne with the appearance of terrifying crystal, flashing like fire. (5)And upon it sat a wondrous man, bright as the sun, like unto a son of God. (6)Before him stood a table like crystal, all of gold and byssus. (7)On the table lay a book whose thickness was six cubits, while its breadth was ten cubits. (8)On its right and on its left stood two angels holding papyrus and ink and pen. (9)In front of the table sat a light-bearing angel, holding a balance in his hand. (10)[On] (his) left there sat a fiery angel, altogether merciless and relentless, holding a trumpet in his hand, which contained within it an all-consuming fire (for) testing the sinners. (11)And the wondrous man who sat on the throne was the one who judged and sentenced the souls. (12)The two angels on the right and on the left recorded. The one on the right recorded righteous deeds, while the one on the left (recorded) sins. (13)And the one who was in front of the table, who was holding the balance, weighed the souls. (14)And the fiery angel, who held the fire, tested the souls. (15)And Abraham asked the Commander-in-Chief Michael, "What are these things which we see?" And the Commander-in-chief said, "These things which you see, pious Abraham, are judgment and recompense." (16)And behold, the angel who held the soul in his hand brought it before the judge. (17)And the judge told one of the angels who served him, "Open for me this book and find for me the sins of this soul." (18)And when he opened the book he found its sins and righteous deeds to equally balanced, and he neither turned it over to the tortures nor (placed it among) those who were being saved but he set it in the middle.

    Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 4

    (1)And the prophet said, "Lord, I shall never cease arguing the case with you." (2)And God said, "Count the flowers of the earth. (3)If you can count them you also will be able to argue the case with me."(4)And the prophet said, "Lord, I cannot count them-I bear human flesh-but neither will I stop arguing the case with you. (5)I wish, Lord, to see the lower parts of Tartarus." (6)And God said, "Go down and see!" (7)And he gave me Michael and Gabriel and thirty-four other angels. (8)and I descended eighty-five steps and they led me down five hundred steps.

    Received by Abraham

    4 Maccabees

    13 Now, therefore, if the seven brothers scorned suffering even unto death, it must be universal conceded that the pious reason is complete master of the passions. (2)For if being enslaved to the passions they had eaten unclean food, we would have said that they had been conquered by them. (3)However, in this case it did not happen so, but by the reason which is commended by God they prevailed over the passions, (4)and so we cannot but perceive the mind's supremacy over them since they overcame both passion and sufferings. (5)How then can we fail to admit, in regard to these men, right reason's victory over the passions, seeing that they did not shrink from the pains of fire? (6)Even as towers at the entrance to harbors repulse the threatening onslaughts of the waves and provide a calm haven for those who sail into it. (7)so the seven-towered right reason of the youths fortified the have of piety and tamed the rugged license of the passions. (8)They formed a holy choir of piety as they encouraged each other with the words, (9)"Let us die like brothers all, brothers, for the Law's sake. Let us follow the example of the three youths in Assyria, who despised the same trial by ordeal in the furnace. Let us not be pusillanimous in the demonstration of true piety." (10,11)"Courage, brother!" said one, and another, "Hold on nobly!" (12)And another, recalling the past, said, "Remember whence you came and at the hand of what father Isaac gave himself to be sacrificed for piety's sake." (13)Each one severally and all together, looking at each other with most cheerful mien, aglow with courage, said, "With all our hearts let us consecrate ourselves unto God, who gave us our souls, and let us expend our bodies for the custodianship of the Law. (14)Let us have no fear of him who thinks he kills. (15)Great is the ordeal and peril of the soul that lies in wait in eternal torment for those who transgress the commandment of God. (16)Let us then arm ourselves with the control over the passions which comes from divine reason. (17)After our death in this fashion Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will receive us, and all our forefathers will praise us." (18)And to each one of the brothers as they were dragged away, those who were left said, "Do not shame us, brother, nor be traitor to our brothers who have already died."

    2 Esdras 7

    (26)'Listen! The time shall come when the signs I have foretold will be seen; the city which is now invisible shall appear and the country now concealed be made visible. (27)Everyone who has been delivered from the evils I have foretold shall see for himself my marvelous acts. (28)My son the Messiah shall appear with his companions and bring four hundred years of happiness to all who survive. (29)At the end of that time, my son the Messiah shall die, and so shall all mankind who draw breath. (30)Then the world shall return to its original silence for seven days as at the beginning of creation, and no one shall be left alive. (31)After seven days the age which is not yet awake shall be roused and the age which is corruptible shall die. (32)The earth shall give up those who sleep in it, and the dust those who rest there in silence; and the storehouses shall give back the souls entrusted to them. (33)Then the Most High shall be seen on the judgment-seat, and there shall be an end of all pity and patience. (34)Judgment alone shall remain; (35)truth shall stand firm and faithfulness be strong; requital shall at once begin and open payment be made; good deeds shall awake and wicked deeds shall not be allowed to sleep. (36)Then the place of torment shall appear, and over against it the place of rest; the furnace of hell shall be displayed, and on the opposite side the paradise of delight.

    Various notes:

    Jewish Martyrs believed that: "After our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us" (4 Maccabees 13:17 in J.H. Charlesworth, The OT Pseudepigrapha, Doubleday, 1983).

    "You have escaped from the abyss and Hades, you will now cross over the crossing place... then he ran to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David" (Apocalypse of Zephaniah 9:2. Charlesworth, op. cit.).

    Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the conduct of reason; and what that prescribes to them as good for them, they do; and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason's dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years; nor are they so bold as to contradict them in anything which they have introduced; and, when they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament, whereby what he wills is done, but so that the will of men can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; on account of which doctrines, they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they do about divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction; insomuch that the cities gave great attestations to them on account of their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also. (The Antiquities of the Jews Book 18, Chapter 1)

    pseudo

    edited to add highlights

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  • heathen
    heathen

    I think that a big part of the problem with trinitarians and the belief of a litteral hell is that they will have to believe that christ actually died and was not sent to hell to soothe the soul of sinners ,so there would go the trinity doctrine as well . I really can't say how much influence greek mythology had on the old testament I don't think it had any, personally . The ancient jews believed that death was the end of all consciousness . Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 They rested their hope on a resurection during judgement day.

  • starScream
    starScream

    Heathen, ( and Pseudoxristos)

    I think that a big part of the problem with trinitarians and the belief of a litteral hell is that they will have to believe that christ actually died and was not sent to hell to soothe the soul of sinners ,so there would go the trinity doctrine as well .

    Don't know what you are saying there.

    I really can't say how much influence greek mythology had on the old testament I don't think it had any, personally . The ancient jews believed that death was the end of all consciousness . Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 They rested their hope on a resurection during judgement day.

    That doesn't prove anything there. Ecclsiastes takes into account the human perspective of desperate gloom for all people no matter what they have accomplished in life. You have to apply the context. Solomon applied human perspective and that was with specific intent. The OT was silent IMO on the existence or lack there of an afterlife, although jewish mythology had a belief in the soul living on. If there was no room for that the idea never would have developed.

    The it was a myth but the whole idea of the grim reaper came directly from the Azrael myth. Azrael was the mythological reaper.

    xristos,

    Thx for putting up that Apocrypha stuff. Definately the writings of false prophets.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    I believe in God. I believe he knows and he cares. Looking at humanity sometimes I wonder why he cares, but I accept it nonetheless.

    Having said that, I cannot accept the idea that a God who knows who I am as an individual, cares about me, perhaps even has affection for me, and then at the end of my life might burn me alive for eternity because I made a misstep or chose the wrong religion. That concept is not logical, nor are the two images compatible.

    Jehovah's Witnesses would have me believe that God is angrier at me right now, for not attending meetings, not going out in service and not doing all the other little JW busy work, than he is at a man who rapes a small child. That concept is not logical, nor are the two images compatible.

    I don't know what happens when we die. Maybe I'll sleep for all eternity. Maybe I'll be with my God. Maybe nothing. But whatever does happen, I choose in this life, to take a leap. I will trust this God who says he cares. I will trust that whatever happens, it will be fair, it will be just and most of all, it will be loving.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Big Tex,

    I just wanted to post some Scriptures for you (have you ever come to Jesus Christ?):

    Matthew 11:27-30: All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father, nor does anyone fully know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

    John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

    John 3:3: Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless someone is Born Again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."

    John 3:14-18: And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the Only Begotten Son of God.

    John 8:24: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

    Acts 16:29-31: And asking for a light he rushed in, and coming trembling, he fell before Paul and Silas, and he brought them forth outside and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household."

    Romans 10:9-13: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whosoever shall call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved."

    Acts 4:12: Nor is there salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under Heaven which has been given among men by which we must be saved."

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Undisfellowshipped

    I appreciate where you're coming from. I understand. I appreciate your kindness in reaching out to another person. But at this time, I am not ready to embrace any sort of religious thought. I have been so burned by Jehovah's Witnesses that the thought of serious doctrinal thought creates such tired head for me. I don't know if God understands. I hope he does, but honestly I just cannot legitimately discuss Biblical doctrine.

    Be well.

    Chris

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Big Tex,

    I understand completely. And, if I understand, I am sure God understands all you have gone through much more than I ever could.

    I will pray for you, that Jesus may give you peace and happiness.

  • heathen
    heathen

    Starscream----- I was mentioning the part of jesus actually dying because recently DJ posted a thread on the trinity and claimed that jesus did not actually die because he believed that God cannot die as a part of the trinity doctrine but the way I see it is Jesus did die and was raised on the 3rd day and did not descend to hades to comfort the dead or some such bologny that trinitarians think the bible is saying.BTW the messianic kingdom is a major theme of the old testament and during that time it does say the dead will be resurected. Daniel 12:2

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