Hell

by onacruse 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hi Heathen,

    You said:

    Starscream----- I was mentioning the part of jesus actually dying because recently DJ posted a thread on the trinity and claimed that jesus did not actually die because he believed that God cannot die as a part of the trinity doctrine but the way I see it is Jesus did die and was raised on the 3rd day and did not descend to hades to comfort the dead or some such bologny that trinitarians think the bible is saying.BTW the messianic kingdom is a major theme of the old testament and during that time it does say the dead will be resurected. Daniel 12:2
    I just wanted to add my beliefs on that subject. I believe in the Trinity. I believe Jesus was and is 100% God and 100% Man. I believe that Jesus, as God the Son, added a Mortal Human Nature (Soul and Body) to His Divine Nature, and was born on Earth. Then, Jesus sacrificed His Human Life (not His Divine Nature) on the Cross to suffer for our sins. When Jesus died, I believe His Human Soul went to the Paradise section of Hades known as "Abraham's bosom". Then, on the third day, He was raised from the dead and re-united with His Human Body. Then, 40 days later, He ascended into Heaven, along with all of the souls that were in the Paradise/Abraham's bosom section of Hades. If Jesus did not die, then we are all condemned for our sins.
  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    will pray for you, that Jesus may give you peace and happiness.

    Thanks. I have a feeling I'll need all the prayers I can get!

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    Craig did F.F Bruce endorse the thoughts in the book? Or did he write the forward to show that there is an alternative veiw?

    If my memory serves me well (and it seldom does) he rejected the teaching of hell and a few other things that were taught by certain churches.

    I Liked his booklets on JWs & the deity.

    Brummie

  • heathen
    heathen

    Undifellowship - That's quite a theory you have going there . I know that trinitarians find it hard to accept the fact that jesus was not in any form of paradise prior to the resurection on the 3rd day. Jesus himself said he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days not in some sort resort for the living impaired .

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Heathen,

    Luke 23:42-43: Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come in Your Kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

    I believe that that Paradise is one of two places - either "Abraham's bosom" section of Hades; or Heaven itself.

    Luke 16:19-25: [...] there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores, [...] And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. [...] But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things, but now here he is comforted and you are suffering.

  • wednesday
    wednesday

    i dreamed i died and awoke in a large room with a lot of men in suits sitting around tables. I asked where the woman were, and one man told me a woman does not have authority ot teach. The dream goes on a bit, but for me, when i died i was in the final JC meeting in the sky. Now that is HELL.

    this is true-i really did dream that.

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    I see from this thread that many of you are going to need this someday:

    guide to hell

    Have a nice trip!

    Dedalus

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Very interesting comments, all. For those who are so inclined, I highly recommend that you check out the link that Randy provided http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/hellcomp.htm It's an excellent comparison of the "conditionalist" and "traditionalist" views on hellfire (30+ pages, been a little busy today reading it ) No summary conclusions are offered, but it seems to me that the argumentation for the conditionalist interpretation (i.e. that after the death of the body a person suffers punishment only for a limited period of time) requires overlooking some important factors of Biblical exegesis. For example, pseudochristos's observation about "apochryphal" intertestamental writings and the influence of Hellenic philosophy on the evolution of Jewish and Christian theology seems to be more or less dismissed by conditionalists...a serious error, particularly when considering the very relevant issue of the immortality of the soul (which, if true, would lend considerable weight to the traditionalist viewpoint of everlasting conscious torment).

    The Scriptures provided by starscream and UD are, each and every one, hotly contested (LOL pardon the pun) by both sides. For example, Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV) Conditionalists focus on the terminal implications of kolasis (the Greek word translated here as "punishment"), whereas traditionalists focus on the meaning of aionos (the Greek word translated here as "eternal") and say that even as the reward for faithfulness continues on without end, so also must it be that the punishment for unfaithfulness continues on forever. And then, apparently, off in their own corner are the "annihilationists" (e.g. JWs), who especially by rejecting the immortality of the soul (and, consequently, making eternal torment impossible) find themselves far to the left of the conditionalists, and come under fire (LOL again) from all sides. Matthew 25:46 NWT renders "punishment" as "cutting-off," though apparently without any similar supporting non-JW translations of this verse (at least none that I could find) except for the Emphatic Diaglott.

    BigTex:

    honestly I just cannot legitimately discuss Biblical doctrine

    hehe, seems like even those that do consider themselves scholars on this issue pretty much end up agreeing to disagree. That's one thing that strikes me as I've been reading that dissertation...the arguments for both sides are very compelling, and backed up with considerable linguistic and historical support. Yet another mystery of the Bible?

    brumm, I've not checked any of Bruce's writings, and in the forward to Fudge's book Bruce says

    I suppose that, as the terms are defined in this work, I would be regarded as neither a traditionalist nor a conditionalist. My own understanding of the issues under discussion would be very much in line with that of C. S. Lewis. Lewis did not systematize his thoughts on the subject (and I have not done so either); Mr. Fudge would no doubt ask (and rightly so) if our exegetical foundation is secure.

    Perhaps you have access to some info that shows Bruce's thoughts more clearly? I would really not want to be misrepresenting him by the comment I made above.

    I'd like to add here a p/m I got from another poster here:

    Hey Craig - I saw your post on hell and thought you might be interested to know that in Buddhism they have these 6 realms, one of them being the hell realm, along with others like the hungry ghost realm, human realm and god realm. There's a cool book out called Thoughts Without a Thinker by a Harvard trained psychiatrist named Mark Epstein in which he gives a psychological explanation for the Buddhist teachings (the realms basically being states of mind) - you might want to check it out.

    Throw non-Christian religion into the mix, and we have a real stew! LOL

    Thanks for all your comments; the issue of Christ's "journey to hell" deserves further comment, which I hope to add tomorrow.

    Craig

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    OnACruise (Craig) said:

    Thanks for all your comments; the issue of Christ's "journey to hell" deserves further comment, which I hope to add tomorrow.

    Here are the Scriptures that I know of which talk about Christ's so-called "journey into Hell":

    Acts 2:25-31 (King James Version): For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    The Greek word used for "Hell" in those Verses is "Hades".

    Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "Hades":

    properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
    ____________________________________

    Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "Hades":

    1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
    2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
    3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
    ____________________________________

    In Acts 2:25-31, the word Greek word "Hades" is used to quote the Hebrew word "Sheol".

    Strong's Bible Dictionary Definition of "Sheol":

    hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.
    ____________________________________

    Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Bible Dictionary Definition of "Sheol":

    1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
    1a) the underworld
    1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
    1b1) place of no return
    1b2) without praise of God
    1b3) wicked sent there for punishment
    1b4) righteous not abandoned to it
    1b5) of the place of exile (figuratively)
    1b6) of extreme degradation in sin
    _____________________________________

    Since Jesus said that He was going to "Paradise" when He died, I am 100% sure that Jesus never went to any place of torment after death.

    A lot of people have questions about 1 Peter 3:19, and so do I (I really am not sure what 1 Peter 3:19 is saying):

    1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also suffered once to atone for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring you to God, being put to death in the Flesh, but made alive by the Spirit,
    1 Peter 3:19: by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
    1 Peter 3:20: who formerly disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;

    Any comments on 1 Peter 3:19?

  • Brummie
    Brummie

    Onac, thanks for the reply, I dont have any of FFBruces stuff left, I used to have some but it went walkies. I tend to agree with the little quote of his you pasted here.

    As for the Jesus in Hell doctrine, I find that repulsive, I was chatting to someone a while ago that believed he went into a burning hell, they got it out of the statement of faith that belongs to some church (C of E?) I think its totally misrepresented and its currently being taught by the Word Faith cult of Kenneth Copeland & Benny Hinn, wierd stuff.

    this could get even more interesting!

    Brummie

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