I have a book called "Religions in America", it details the beliefs of various denominations. I was surprised to learn that many Protestant denominations teach that hell is a state of being not a literal place. That is not popularly known or atleast not by me....
Hell
by onacruse 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Dogpatch
If you would like to read a side-by-side comparison of Fudge and Morey's work, to see who is fudging the facts, check out this major comparison (which has the permission of both Fudge and Morey to be online and in print) here:
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/hellcomp.htm
Randy Watters
Net Soup!
WatchtowerNews
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starScream
Literal physical torture by hellfire is not likely even if there is a place of eternal punishment.
Ultimately both sides; those that deny hell exists, and those that say it does exist have compelling biblical support.
For those that say it does exist there are a few passages that make it necessary which is why I agree with them more.
At Matt. 25:41 Jesus describes the eternal destiny of the damned as a literal place that was created for the devil and his angels. You can't really prepare a state of nonexistence beforehand. Those cocepts clash. You can prepare a place though.
At Rev 22:14 Jesus speaks of the Saints going into the Holy City after the final Judgement but with reference to the city Jesus says that those who practice sin (or the damned) are still existing only outside of the city. By this point they should not exist if they weren't going to exist. The second death should have happened already. So it seems the second death is still further separation from God -- the ultimate separation while still existing.
At Rev 14:10-11 John describes those who recieve the mark of the beast as being tormented by fire and sulphur and that "the smoke of their torment" ascends forever and ever. Also they recieve no rest day or night. This seems to refer to their ultimate destiny and that they will never rest from torment. In the armageddon account nothing like this is described so it is most likely the lake of fire which is described as fire and sulphur also.
there are plenty of scriptures that seem to speak of the eternal punishment as not literally "hellfire." At Jude 13 Jude says that for the damned, 'blackest darkness' (NIV) or 'blackness of darkness' (NWT) (not sure which one is better although NWT had a nice ring their) has been reserved forever. Some would say this is annihilation describing what the annihilated would experience. The problem is he should have just said nonexistence has been reserved forever. If you don't exist you can't experience blackest darkness or the blackness of darkness.
I only see one scripture in which the eternal punishment could be said to be annihilation. At Matt. 10:28 Jesus to be afraid of the One who can destroy both body and soul in hell. It may sound like annihilation is being described but with reference to the One Jesus uses the word destroy and with reference to "those" he uses the word kill. It curious to note he did not use equal terminology.
I think the body of NT scriputre shows an eternal state of existence for the damned although you can't rule out annihilation universally. It does not seem to be a literal physical burning torment in light of scriptures like Jude 13. Either way I think ultimately it is a toss up if you are sola scriptura. I just wonder why so many cults can't stand the idea of hell in any form but the people who are right about the rest of the bible for the most part don't agree with the cults on that doctrine.
It could be that the cults are so legalistic they themselves are afraid they may suffer the second death and just want to get a break and not exist. Otherwise they might not be able to be so legalistic and make it so hard to get salvation if they are so at risk of going to hell.
They also like to be really really exclusive and make salvation dependent on ridiculous nuances that no one else would or not many have come up with to make them the only true people of God. Something that is very stupid but even dumber if they stick to the hell teaching.
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UnDisfellowshipped
First of all, True Bible-Based Born-Again Christians teach that once a person has been Born Again, they will NEVER, EVER go to Hell, so there should be absolutely no fear of Hell among True Born Again Christians because they have already been saved by putting their faith in Jesus Christ's shed Blood on the Cross.
Jesus Christ spoke about Gehenna ("Hell"), and this is what He said:
(Scriptures are from the English Majority Text Version)
Matthew 5:22: But I say to you that whoever gets angry with his brother without cause will be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Empty-head!' will be liable to the council. But whoever says, ' fool!' will be liable to the fiery Hell [Gehenna].
Matthew 5:29-30: If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is better for you that one of your members be lost, than for your whole body to be cast into Hell [Gehenna]. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is better for you that one of your members be lost, than for your whole body to be cast into Hell [Gehenna].
Matthew 10:28: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in Hell [Gehenna].
Matthew 18:8-9: And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut them off and cast them from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, than having two hands or two feet, to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be thrown into the fiery Hell [Gehenna].
Matthew 23:14-15: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the kingdom of heaven before men; for you do not enter, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you travel around land and sea to make one proselyte, and whenever he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Hell [Gehenna] as you.
Matthew 23:33: Serpents! Brood of vipers! How shall you escape from the condemnation of Hell [Gehenna]?
Mark 9:43-48: If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It would be better for you to enter into life maimed, than to enter having two hands, to go into Hell [Gehenna], into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' "And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It would be better for you to enter into life lame, than having two feet to be cast into Hell [Gehenna], into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' "And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It would be better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into the fiery Hell [Gehenna], where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
Luke 12:5: But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who after He kills, has authority to cast into Hell [Gehenna]; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
______________________________________The Bible also speaks about Eternal Fire, and this is what it says:
Matthew 25:41: "Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels
Jude 1:7: as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to fornication and having gone after other flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
_______________________________________Jesus Christ also spoke about Hades ["Hell"], and this is what He said:
Luke 16:19-31: "Now there was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, enjoying himself splendidly every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores, who had been placed at his gate, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things, but now here he is comforted and you are suffering. And besides all this, between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, so that those who desire to cross over from here to you are not able, nor may those from there cross over to us.' Then he said, 'Therefore I beseech you, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone from the dead should go to them, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded should one rise from the dead.' "
________________________________________The Bible also talks about The Lake of Fire, and it says this:
Revelation 14:9-11: Then another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the Beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, then he shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And they shall be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, those who worship the Beast and his image, and anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 19:20: Then the Beast was apprehended, and with him the False Prophet who had performed the signs before him, by which he had deceived those who received the mark of the Beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10-15: And the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where also the Beast and the False Prophet are. And they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a Great White Throne and He who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the Heaven fled. And no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened the Books. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by the things having been written in the Books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation 21:8: But the cowardly, and unbelieving, and sinners, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all who are false shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
_______________________________________________Those are the Scriptures -- you be the judge.
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DJ
Wow.....lots of stuff there guys! Thanks, I think...lol. I never gave this much thought because I suppose I didn't want it to be literal. I need to re-read this and comtemplate some more. Good points Star and Undis you are always a treasure and Randy, well....you have helped me from the start! I wonder what happened to Craig?? lol. love, dj
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onacruse
I wonder what happened to Craig??
I'm still here
Lot's to read
"I'll be back" LOL
Craig
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heathen
I did like the way the WT argued over the belief structure concerning the existence of Hell .I can agree that the concept was entangled with the greek mythological beliefs that were around when the bible was written .Dantes Inferno I think was what was talked about , if I remember correctly. Hades was the word that seemed to cause all the contreversy . The greeks believed that hades was the god of the underworld and those bannished there were eternally punnished with all sorts of unholy horrors .The bible can be very confusing on this as to what happens to those who die in a state of disgrace. There is mention of a lake of fire and eternal torment .Jesus often talked about throwing people in the fiery gehenna . Matt.10:28 says that God can destroy both body and soul which here makes it hard to believe that people will suffer eternally for their mistakes but implies that the state of death is imposed the forfeiture of any hope of life .Rev 20:14 says death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire and also explains that the lake of fire means the second death of which there is no resurection .
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freedom96
I don't believe in a fiery hell, where people are tortured forever.
I don't think a loving God would participate in something like that, and as some teach, Satan runs hell, and if that is the case, then it would seem that God and Satan are working together and I don't see that happening either.
To me, it does seem much more likely that hell is simply a place of non-existance. Some have described it as a world without influence of God.
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DJ
Heathen,
Matt 10:28 when compared with Luke 12:4-5 is a bit different in this way..Jesus said,
"And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more they can do to you. But I will show you whom you should fear. Fear Him who, after He has killed has the power to cast into hell, fear Him!
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heathen
Freedom-- That's a good point but satan was used by God in the old testament to test people like Job who in my opinion suffered about every evil any man should have to face in a life time .The new testament really does make it sound like you have to live a life of living hell before you are counted worthy .The apostles taught to accept hatred and persecution as a form of Godly discipline .