@vienne
The passage in Philippians 2:6-11 indeed describes Jesus' pre-incarnate state, his incarnation, and subsequent exaltation. However, the interpretation that Jesus was merely in "the form of God" as a spirit, rather than being fully divine, misses the crucial context of Paul's argument. When Paul writes that Jesus existed "in the form of God" (μορφῇ θεοῦ), he is not merely stating that Jesus had "a similar" nature to God, like the angels do. Instead, the phrase indicates that Jesus possessed the very nature and essence of God, sharing fully in the divine identity. The use of "form" (μορφῇ) here does not imply a superficial or incomplete likeness but rather the true and complete nature of God. This understanding is consistent with the broader New Testament witness to Jesus' divinity.
If the statement that Christ existed "in the form of God" only meant that he was an angel or existed as a spirit, so why is it that nowhere in the Holy Scriptures is the statement about angels that they exist "in the form of God"? This is simply an arbitrary statement, proof by assertion. Once Christians knew that Christ was incarnate, then it stands to reason that he did not exist in bodily form before that, so this interpretation would be a mere tautology.
The Bible does not describe angels or other spiritual beings as existing "in the form of God" at all. This phrase is unique and significant because it implies a level of divinity and equality with God that is not attributed to any other being. The use of "form of God" in Philippians 2:6 indicates that Jesus shared in the divine nature, which is why the passage goes on to discuss how He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped or exploited. This clearly distinguishes Jesus from any created being, including angels, and emphasizes His unique divine status.
Thus the term "morphe" in the context of Philippians 2:6 does not merely denote an external appearance or a generic spiritual nature. Instead, "morphe" refers to the essential attributes and nature of something. In saying that Christ existed in the "form of God," Paul is affirming that Christ possesses the very nature and essence of God. This is not merely about being a spirit but about sharing in the full divine nature.
Your argument suggests that Paul is contrasting Jesus with Roman emperors who "grasped" at divinity that did not belong to them. However, the assertion that this juxtaposition was Paul's goal, or that he had this in mind, is not supported by anything from the context, it is an arbitrary statement. While this might be an interesting historical parallel, it does not negate the point Paul is making about Christ's divine nature. The contrast is not between Jesus and mere humans but between Jesus' divine prerogatives and His willingness to empty Himself for humanity's sake. Jesus did not need to grasp at divinity because He already possessed it; instead, He chose to humble Himself.
You suggest that the context of Philippians 2:6 points to a non-Trinitarian view, but this interpretation fails to take into account the doctrine of the Trinity as understood by the early Church. The Trinity is not modalism (which suggests that God simply takes on different modes or forms) but rather the belief in one God in three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The passage in Philippians highlights the humility of Christ in not clinging to his equality with God but rather emptying himself to take on human nature. This act of humility does not diminish his divinity but rather emphasizes the mystery of the incarnation—God becoming man while remaining fully God.
Your argument that Jesus cannot be God because "no one has seen God" (John 1:18) overlooks the doctrine of the incarnation. The New Testament clearly teaches that Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), and through the incarnation, God made Himself known in the person of Jesus Christ. The distinction John makes in John 1:18 is between seeing God in His full, unmediated glory (which no one can do) and seeing God as He has revealed Himself in Christ. Jesus is not merely a reflection or a lesser being but the full and perfect revelation of God to humanity.
It is indeed true that "no one has ever seen God," which refers to the fact that no one has fully seen or comprehended the Father in His fullness and glory. However, the verse continues by saying, "the only(-begotted, or unique) God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known." This is a clear reference to Jesus, the Son, who has made the Father known to humanity. The distinction between seeing God and seeing Jesus does not diminish the divinity of Christ but rather underscores the unique role of Jesus in revealing the Father to the world. While Jesus, in His incarnation, was seen by people, this does not contradict the statement that no one has seen the Father in His full divine essence. Jesus is the visible manifestation of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), making the Father known in a way that is accessible to humanity.
The example of Isaiah's vision in Isaiah 6 is often brought up to discuss whether people have seen God. Isaiah describes seeing the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted. However, the New Testament, particularly in John 12:41, clarifies that Isaiah saw the glory of Christ, further affirming the pre-incarnate existence of the Son and His divinity. This supports the understanding that while no one has seen the Father directly, people have encountered the Son, who reveals the Father.
The use of "form" (μορφή) and "image" (εἰκών) in the New Testament does not imply inferiority or a mere resemblance but rather speaks to the real and true representation of God's nature in Christ. For instance, Hebrews 1:3 states that Jesus is the "exact imprint" (χαρακτὴρ) of God's nature. This language underscores the belief that Jesus shares in the same divine essence as the Father. The Son's taking on the "form of a servant" (μορφὴν δούλου) does not negate his divinity but highlights the profound humility of the incarnation, where the eternal Son of God took on human flesh for the sake of humanity.
Your interpretation that Christ "emptied" Himself of divine glory to take on human form is partially correct but requires clarification. The "emptying" (kenosis) does not imply that Christ ceased to be God or shed His divine nature. Instead, it means that He chose not to exercise His divine rights fully and took on human nature, experiencing the limitations and suffering of humanity while remaining fully divine.
The suggestion that Trinitarians rely on "extended verbiage" to make their case misses the point that Trinitarian theology is deeply rooted in the biblical text and the historical understanding of the early Church. The doctrine of the Trinity developed as a way to faithfully interpret the full witness of Scripture, which consistently portrays Jesus as fully God and fully man. This is not a later "imposition" but a necessary conclusion drawn from the biblical data.
@Duran
The Bible, while inspired, is a complex collection of texts written over centuries, in different languages, and within various cultural contexts. To understand its message fully, we must engage in interpretation. This doesn’t mean altering the text, but rather seeking to understand what the original authors intended and how it applies today.
Quoting verses in isolation without considering their context can lead to misunderstandings. For example, when discussing doctrines like the Trinity, we must consider the full scope of biblical revelation, including the Old and New Testaments, to see how God has progressively revealed His nature.
Simply using verses without context to support a preconceived idea is called Proof-texting, and it can lead to incorrect conclusions. It's important to consider the genre, audience, and purpose of each book of the Bible when interpreting a verse.
Trinitarians do not ignore or twist Scripture. Instead, they seek to interpret the Bible faithfully, considering the whole counsel of Scripture, both the Old and New Testaments. The doctrine of the Trinity is not based on cherry-picking verses but on a holistic understanding of the biblical narrative, where God is revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each Person of the Trinity is seen interacting in the work of creation, redemption, and sanctification.
Reason and faith are not opposed to each other. The doctrine of the Trinity is indeed a complex theological concept, but it is rooted in the biblical texts. Reason helps believers to articulate and understand the mystery of God's nature as revealed in Scripture. It’s important to recognize that the limitations of human reason don’t invalidate the truth of Scripture, which often reveals things beyond human comprehension.
The accusation that Trinitarians are "idiots in their reasoning" misunderstands how deeply Trinitarians engage with the Scriptures. The doctrine of the Trinity in its crystallized form was developed over centuries of careful study, debate, and reflection on the entire biblical text, not just isolated verses. Theologians and scholars have long wrestled with how best to articulate the nature of God as revealed in the Bible. The Trinity is the conclusion that they reached, and it reflects a profound respect for all the Scriptures.
Proverbs 26:4 says, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him." This verse advises against stooping to the level of unwise arguments, but it doesn't mean we should avoid discussing important issues or challenging misconceptions. The goal should always be to engage with respect, clarity, and a desire for mutual understanding.
Dismissing Trinitarians as "lacking reason" overlooks the genuine and thoughtful engagement that many believers have with the Scriptures. The doctrine of the Trinity is a result of deep reflection on the Bible’s revelation of God, and it has been affirmed by countless believers over the centuries as a faithful expression of biblical truth. Rather than viewing Trinitarians as "idiots," it might be more productive to engage in a respectful dialogue about why they believe what they do and to explore the Scriptures together with an open mind and heart.