Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat 152 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    @Duran

    Save mankind from what?

    Scripturally, as far as I understand, there are three aspects of spiritual salvation in the New Testament

    Salvation from:

    . a. sins Penalty – Ro.6:23, 5:1 called Justification (past, accomplished)

    .

    b. sins Power – I Cor.1:30, 6:11, Heb13:12 called Sanctification (progressive process)

    .

    c. sins Presence – Ro. 8:30, I Pe. 5:4 called Glorification (future heavenly hope) I Pe.1:3-4, Col.1:3-5

    Will any who lived and died before Jesus died, will any of them be resurrected?

    Since Christ died for all, the power of the cross to save sanctify and restore extends back to Adam and future into the next age. So yes, all in their graves will come forth, some to a resurrection of life and some to judgment as Jesus indicated.



  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Rattigan350:

    Genesis does not mention a snake. It was a serpent.

    🤦‍♂️

    Revelation ties them all together.

    Revelation, written much later, reinterprets the story by applying Christian ideas to the original tropes in the story.

    Also, it is well known and accepted that Jesus is that seed.

    No, it is only accepted by Christians. Circular reasoning is circular. 🤦‍♂️ It hasn’t been demonstrated to be anything more than an element in a borrowed folktale.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Rattigan350:

    Matt 28:19 says to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy spirit. But just 10 days later Peter was saying to baptize in the name of Jesus and he left off the Father and holy spirit. So I don't believe that Matt 28:19 says to baptize in the trinity.

    The Bible is vague about what the Holy spirit is, but is clear that it isn’t just ‘god’s power’. Acts 19:2; 2 Corinthians 6:6-7.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    What is there to know personally about Jehovah?
    Can a person legitimately say they know Jehovah if they have never communicated with Him?
    Indeed. We have facilities for people who hear back from God (or Jesus).
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is an angel, specifically Michael the Archangel, is a core element of their theology. However, this belief is problematic when examined through the broader context of Christian theology and Scripture. Here's a detailed refutation of this perspective: The New Testament explicitly distinguishes Jesus from angels and presents Him as superior to them. The letter to the Hebrews is particularly clear on this point:

    • Hebrews 1:3-5: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word... So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father'?"

    These verses demonstrate that Jesus holds a unique position as the Son of God, distinct from and superior to all angels. The rhetorical question in verse 5 emphasizes that no angel, including Michael, has ever been called the Son of God in the way that Jesus is. The Bible mentions Michael the Archangel in a few places, but these references never suggest that he is divine or equivalent to Jesus:

    • Jude 1:9: "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’"

    This verse shows that Michael, despite his high rank, defers judgment to the Lord, indicating that he is not himself the Lord. This is a clear indication of Michael's status as a created being, distinct from the divine authority of Jesus.

    • Daniel 10:13, 21: Michael is referred to as "one of the chief princes" and as the protector of Israel. These titles do not suggest that Michael is unique in his authority or divine in nature; rather, they indicate that he is one among other angelic leaders.

    The New Testament consistently portrays Jesus as more than an angel. He is the incarnate Word of God, who existed from the beginning and through whom all things were created:

    • John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

    This passage identifies Jesus as the Word (Logos), who is not only with God but is God. This directly contradicts the idea that Jesus is merely an angel, as angels are created beings, whereas Jesus is the uncreated Creator.

    • Colossians 1:16-17: "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

    These verses reaffirm that Jesus is the agent of creation, including the creation of all angels. This places Him in a category entirely separate from that of angels, including Michael. Jehovah’s Witnesses’ identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel significantly diminishes the Christian understanding of Christ's divinity. If Jesus is merely an archangel, this contradicts the historic Christian doctrine of the true deity of the Son. Moreover, the idea that Jesus could be both the Creator of all things and a created being (an archangel) presents a theological contradiction. Christian theology, based on Scripture, holds that Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father, not created, and is of the same essence as God.

    It is worth noting that Jehovah's Witnesses rarely refer to Jesus as simply "an angel," possibly because doing so would make it clear that their view significantly lowers the status of Jesus compared to mainstream Christian belief. The reluctance to frequently use this term might reflect an awareness that identifying Jesus as an angel could alienate those who hold to the biblical teaching of Jesus’ divinity.

    The belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel is not supported by Scripture when examined in its full context. The Bible consistently presents Jesus as superior to angels, divine, and one with God the Father, making it theologically unsound to reduce Him to the status of an archangel. The view that Jesus is an angel undermines key Christian doctrines about His divine nature and unique role in salvation. Therefore, the identification of Jesus with Michael the Archangel should be rejected as inconsistent with biblical revelation.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    JWs believe that Jesus is superior to the angels for the reasons stated in Hebrews.

    1. Heb 1.4 says that Jesus “has become” better than the angels because he has inherited a name better than theirs. This tells us that one reason Jesus is superior to the angels because he was promoted to a superior position by God.

    2. But that’s not the only reason. Jesus is, and always has been superior to the angels because he is the “firstborn” according to Heb 1.6, and the angels worship him at God’s direction.

    3. Another reason Jesus is superior to the angels is because he is the perfect reflection of God’s glory and he is the one through whom God created the world. (Heb 1.2, 3) Obviously the one who is the reflection of God’s glory is distinct from God at the same time as being superior to everything created by God through that person.

    4. Heb 1.8 tells us Jesus is divine in words that were originally applied to the king of Israel but applies to God’s Son in a grander sense. Verse 9 also asserts that Jesus as a divine being is subject to his God.

    JWs agree with all these reasons in Hebrews for saying Jesus as God’s unique Son is far superior to the angels. If the author of Hebrews actually believed that Jesus is superior to the angels because he’s part of a Trinity then why didn’t he just say so instead of beating about the bush with 6 or more reasons that place Jesus above the angels but also clearly distinct and subject to God?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    JWs interpret Hebrews 1:4 as suggesting that Jesus "became" superior to the angels after being exalted by God. However, the phrase "has become" (Greek: genomenos) in this context does not imply a change in nature from inferior to superior. Rather, it refers to the exaltation and recognition of Jesus' inherent superiority following His resurrection and ascension. Hebrews 1:4 does not mean that Jesus was once inferior and later promoted. Instead, it emphasizes that Jesus, in His exaltation, was declared superior to the angels because of His divine sonship. His superiority is tied to His identity as the eternal Son of God, not as a result of promotion.

    The passage also highlights that Jesus' superiority is connected to the "name" He inherited, which is tied to His identity as the Son of God. The "name" in Jewish thought often represents the very nature or essence of a person. Therefore, the name Jesus inherited refers to His divine identity, not a change in status.

    The JW interpretation suggests that Jesus is "firstborn" in Hebrews 1:6 in the sense of being the first created being, and therefore superior to the angels. However, the term "firstborn" (Greek: prototokos) in Hebrews 1:6 does not refer to Jesus as a created being but to His preeminence in rank.

    In biblical usage, "firstborn" often denotes rank or position rather than temporal origin. For example, in Psalm 89:27, David is called the "firstborn," the highest of the kings of the earth, even though he was not the first king or the firstborn in his family. Similarly, Jesus is called "firstborn" to signify His supreme authority over all creation.

    Hebrews 1:6 indicates that the angels are commanded to worship Jesus. This is significant because worship is reserved for God alone (Matthew 4:10). The fact that God commands the angels to worship Jesus points to His divine status, not merely a high rank among created beings. This aligns with the broader biblical teaching that Jesus is divine and worthy of worship (e.g., Philippians 2:10-11).

    The argument that Jesus is a "reflection" of God's glory and distinct from God, yet superior to creation, is only partially correct. The term "reflection" (Greek: apaugasma) and "exact imprint" (Greek: charakter) are meant to convey that Jesus is the perfect expression of God’s nature. Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as the "exact imprint of [God’s] nature," meaning that He shares fully in the divine essence. The phrase "exact imprint" indicates that Jesus is the perfect and complete representation of God, possessing the same divine nature. This is not to suggest that He is a mere reflection in the sense of being lesser, but that He is fully divine, embodying the very nature of God. While Jesus is distinct from the Father in terms of personhood (as the Son), He is not distinct in essence. The distinction lies within the Persons of the Trinity, not in the nature of divinity. The Son, like the Father, is fully God.

    Hebrews 1:8 directly addresses the Son as "God," quoting Psalm 45:6-7. The JW interpretation acknowledges Jesus’ divinity but still sees Him as subordinate and created. The passage in Hebrews 1:8 explicitly calls the Son "God" (Theos in Greek). This is a clear affirmation of His divine nature. The fact that the Son is addressed as "God" indicates that He shares the same divine essence as the Father. The subsequent verse (Hebrews 1:9) mentions that Jesus, while divine, has a God. This reflects the Trinitarian understanding that, within the Godhead, there is a relational order where the Son submits to the Father. However, this submission is in the context of His role in the economy of salvation, not a statement of His essence or nature. The Son’s subordination is functional, not ontological.

    The argument that the author of Hebrews should have explicitly stated that Jesus is part of a Trinity if that was the belief is flawed. The doctrine of the Trinity is not stated as a simple proposition in the Bible, but it is derived from the totality of Scripture. Hebrews, like other New Testament books, presents Jesus as fully divine, eternal, and worthy of worship—attributes that align with the doctrine of the Trinity.

    The Trinity doctrine arises from the need to account for the full divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit while maintaining monotheism. Hebrews supports this by affirming Jesus’ divine nature, His role as Creator, His eternal Sonship, and His worthiness of worship—attributes that cannot be ascribed to any created being, no matter how exalted. Thus, the author of Hebrews contributes to the scriptural foundation for the Trinity by portraying Jesus as fully God, distinct in person from the Father, yet one in essence with Him.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The NT clearly teaches that Jesus was promoted by God after his resurrection. Other scriptures affirm this, such as Philippians 2 and Matthew 28. It would be nonsense to talk about God being promoted to a superior position because God is supreme. The obvious conclusion is that Jesus is distinct and subject to almighty God and owes his position and very existence to God.

    Phi 2.9–11 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground — and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

    Matt 28.18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    Your assertion that Jesus was "promoted" after His resurrection, as mentioned in Philippians 2:9-11 and Matthew 28:18, reflects a common misunderstanding of the nature of Christ as both fully God and fully man. Let's take a closer look at these passages and how they fit within the broader context of Christian theology.

    In Philippians 2:9-11, Paul writes that "God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name that is above every name." This passage indeed speaks of an exaltation, but it's essential to understand the nature of this exaltation.

    The passage describes a movement from Jesus' voluntary humility to His exaltation. Jesus, who "being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (Philippians 2:6), chose to humble Himself by taking on human nature and becoming obedient to death on a cross. This humility does not mean that He ceased to be God or that He was less than God. Instead, it demonstrates His willingness to relinquish His divine privileges temporarily for the sake of humanity's redemption.

    The "exaltation" spoken of here refers to Jesus' human nature being glorified. As the Catechism of St. Pius X explains, "As God, He was equal to His Father in glory," but "as man, He has been raised above all the Angels and Saints, and constituted Lord of all things." This exaltation does not imply that Jesus became more divine or that He was somehow less than God before; rather, it signifies the glorification of His humanity and the public acknowledgment of His lordship over all creation.

    In Matthew 28:18, Jesus declares, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." This statement is often misunderstood as implying that Jesus only received divine authority after His resurrection. However, a closer examination reveals a deeper truth.

    As God, Jesus already possessed all authority inherently. What Matthew 28:18 emphasizes is that Jesus, in His incarnate and now glorified human nature, exercises this authority. The "giving" of authority here is understood within the context of His role as the Mediator between God and humanity. Jesus' authority is now fully manifested and exercised in His resurrected and glorified state, where He reigns as the God-man over all creation.

    The notion of "giving" in this context does not imply that Jesus was without authority before, but rather that His authority is now visibly recognized and acknowledged following His redemptive work. This authority is exercised by Jesus in His role as the incarnate Son, who, after accomplishing salvation, is rightfully acknowledged by all creation.

    Your argument hinges on the idea that it would be "nonsense to talk about God being promoted to a superior position because God is supreme." This is true—God, in His divine nature, cannot be promoted. However, this does not apply to Jesus in His incarnate form.

    The doctrine of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union (the union of Jesus' divine and human natures) affirm that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. His divine nature is eternal, unchanging, and all-powerful. His human nature, however, underwent the process of humiliation and exaltation as part of God's redemptive plan.

    When Scripture speaks of Jesus being exalted or given authority, it refers to His human nature. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God." His exaltation is not a promotion in His divine nature, but a glorification of His human nature, reflecting the acknowledgment of His completed work of salvation.

    You also mention that Jesus is "distinct and subject to almighty God," which is true in terms of His incarnate mission. The Son, in His role as the incarnate Word, willingly submits to the Father’s will, as part of the divine economy of salvation.

    The subordination of the Son to the Father during His earthly ministry is a matter of economic order, not of ontological inferiority. Within the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. The submission of the Son to the Father pertains to His role in the economy of salvation, where He operates in perfect obedience as the incarnate Son, but this in no way diminishes His divine status.

    Hebrews 1:8-9, which you referenced, highlights this distinction: Jesus is addressed as "God," and His throne is described as "forever and ever." This passage clearly attributes divinity to Jesus, while also acknowledging His role within the Trinity.

    Hence the passages in Philippians 2 and Matthew 28 do not undermine the divinity of Christ; rather, they highlight the glorification of His human nature and His role in the divine plan of salvation. Jesus' exaltation is not about Him becoming God or receiving divinity, but about the acknowledgment of His work and the glorification of His human nature. The New Testament consistently affirms both the full divinity and full humanity of Jesus, upholding the mystery of the Trinity and the unique role of Jesus as the God-man.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Are you using ChatGPT to write these responses?

    This exaltation does not imply that Jesus became more divine or that He was somehow less than God before

    Yes, it implies Jesus is less than God. Because imagine if those NT statements were made by or about God himself. Imagine God said “all power has been given to me”. You would conclude he cannot be God almighty if he received his power. Or suppose it was said about God that he was “exalted to a superior position”. You would again conclude that we are not talking about God almighty because God cannot be exalted to a superior position as he is always supreme. When the NT repeatedly says things about Jesus that indicate that he is less than God almighty it ought to be clear that Jesus is distinct from and subject to God.

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