Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat 152 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Is this page loading oddly for everyone else? The comment box is in the center of th page.

    Perhaps my word choice was poor. I'm quite impressed by the mystical origins model of the faith. Belief of a revelatory mystical event would be regarded as 'historical' by those so convinced. Perhaps I should have used expressions like earthbound or material.

    There seems two points that bear mentioning, one that earliest Christians could have, and I suspect they did, understood the death and resurrection very differently. Before the Gospel narrative tradition that fleshed out the Christ in recent corporeal terms, the drama may have been thought of as happening in the spirit realm. Pre-Christian texts betray a belief that the heavens were a mirror of the earth in ways that seem foreign to us. The ascension of Isaiah is a marvelous peek into pre-Orthodox thought and there we find the simple expression" “As above, so below". The multilevel heavens included scenes much like the earth, trees grew there, and in fact the tree of life was thought to be there. Also, heavenly spirits were busy conducting sacrifices to God on an alter in heaven. Given these facts, it is not a stretch to think the death and rising up was an entirely, or mostly, heavenly drama.

    The Ascension of Isaiah is a marvelous find, apart from some rather obvious later edits, reveals a Christianity completely without the Gospel narrative. The Christ descends through the layers of heaven unrecognized by the spirits of heaven and below.

    10:

    8 “Go out and descend through all the heavens. You shall descend through the firmament and through that world as far as the angel who (is) in Sheol, but you shall not go as far as Perdition.
    9 And you shall make your likeness like that of all who (are) in the five heavens,
    10 and you shall take care to make your form like that of the angels of the firmament and also (like that) of the angels who (are) in Sheol.
    11 And none of the angels of that world shall know that you (are) Lord with me of the seven heavens and of their angels. And they shall not know that you (are) with me
    12 when with the voice of the heavens I summon you, and their angels and their lights, and when I lift up (my voice) to the sixth heaven, that you may judge and destroy the princes and the angels and the gods of that world, and the world which is ruled by them,...
    9:14 And the god of that world will stretch out [his hand against the Son], and they will lay their hands upon him andhang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is.
    15 And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed even from the heavens so that it will not be known who he is.
    16 And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day


    This certainly reminds us of 1 Cor 2:8


    None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Apart from a few suspect passages and the insertion of a doxological hymn, Paul in the most probably authentic works offers us nothing about the years Jesus was to have spent on earth, nor does he show any interest in interviewing those who the Gospels (not written yet) describe as intimate associates. Rather he declares and swears he learned nothing from anyone else, but only through revelation and visions when he was taken to what he assumes was "the third heaven".

    Paul seems to reflect a Christology more akin to Ascension of Isaiah than the Gospels.

    Secondly, the intertextual nature of the Gospel narrative betrays the source of these stories was not collective memory but typological pesher of OT stories. I used to use the term Midrash-like but learned some Jews are passionately protective of the expression.

    For a sample of this process, some years ago Leolaia put together a marvelous composition identifying the ingredients to the Judas betrayal and arrest.



    So while undoubtedly you are correct that death and resurrection of Christ was a pivotal break from the Jewish precedents, it was likely inspired by a growing interest in martyrdom and suffering prophets of old as well as other mystery faiths featuring a similar sense of divinity and sacrifice. I'm not going to invite criticism regarding direct links between Christianity and other Mystery faiths as I'm aware of the overstated popular suggestions of copycatting. It would however be a mistake to overlook the cultural realities of the day.

    I'm sure none of this will persuade someone convinced their faith represents the 'one truth faith', but for me it fits the facts and certainly offers an explanation for Paul's statements of faith and works like the Ascn. of Isaiah and the many Gnostic forms of Christianity.
  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Comparing this development to how Hinduism may have turned metaphors into literal stories overlooks the unique emphasis that Christianity places on historical revelation. While there are metaphorical elements in Christian teaching, the core of the faith is grounded in historical claims about Jesus’ actions and identity.

    This comment could be taken as a confirmation of my earlier statements. In the marketplace of ideas, the forms of Christianity that euhemerized the Christ as a guy walking around Palestine doing countless miracles before being killed by humans, had an advantage over the esoteric revelatory versions. In my mind it is easier to create a cult of a man than a cult based upon what might have sounded like a metaphysical abstraction. The addition of the Gospel narratives unquestionably saved Christianity from obscurity.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @peacefulpete

    Your perspective highlights an interesting approach to understanding early Christianity, particularly in how you emphasize a mystical origin model and the possibility that early Christians viewed the death and resurrection of Christ in a different, more spiritualized way before the Gospel narratives took shape. While it's true that some early Christian texts, such as The Ascension of Isaiah, reflect a mystical or spiritualized understanding of Christ's descent and ascent, this does not negate the historical claims of early Christianity regarding the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. The foundational Christian belief, as articulated by the apostles, particularly Paul, was firmly rooted in the historicity of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

    Paul, for example, consistently emphasizes the historical nature of the resurrection in his letters. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, he lists specific individuals who witnessed the resurrected Christ, underscoring that this event was not merely a spiritual or metaphorical occurrence but a real, historical event verified by eyewitnesses. Paul's focus is not on a mystical Christ hidden in the heavens but on a risen Christ who physically appeared to his followers.

    While the mystical elements in early Christian thought are certainly intriguing, they do not represent the core message of the earliest Christian communities, which centered on the tangible, historical reality of Jesus’ death and resurrection.

    You suggest that Paul’s Christology is more aligned with the Ascension of Isaiah than with the Gospel narratives, implying that Paul’s understanding of Christ was more spiritual and less grounded in historical events. However, this overlooks Paul’s own statements about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

    In Philippians 2:5-11, Paul speaks of Christ’s incarnation in very concrete terms, describing how Jesus, "being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." This passage explicitly refers to Christ’s earthly life and humiliation, followed by His exaltation. Paul’s Christology includes both the historical Jesus and the exalted Christ, making it clear that these two aspects are not mutually exclusive.

    Moreover, the idea that Paul did not discuss Jesus’ earthly life in detail does not imply that he viewed Jesus merely as a spiritual being. Paul’s letters were written to address specific theological and pastoral concerns, and the Gospel accounts, which detail Jesus’ life and ministry, complement Paul’s theological reflections. Together, they present a coherent picture of Jesus as both fully human and fully divine.

    You argue that the Gospel narratives, with their focus on a corporeal Jesus performing miracles, gave Christianity a competitive advantage by creating a more accessible and relatable figure than abstract, metaphysical ideas. However, this interpretation downplays the central role of the Gospels as historical testimony rather than as mere theological constructs.

    The Gospels were written by or based on the accounts of eyewitnesses who knew Jesus and followed Him during His ministry. Luke, for example, makes it clear in the prologue to his Gospel (Luke 1:1-4) that he carefully investigated everything from the beginning and based his account on the testimony of those who were eyewitnesses. The Gospels are not simply literary creations to promote a new religious movement; they are historical accounts meant to preserve the teachings and actions of Jesus for future generations.

    It’s important to recognize that while early Christianity did indeed interact with pre-Christian Jewish and Greco-Roman thought, it did not simply “adopt” these ideas wholesale. The early Christians reinterpreted Jewish messianic expectations and transformed Greek philosophical concepts like the Logos into a radically new understanding of God’s revelation in Christ. The Logos in the Gospel of John is not just a philosophical abstraction but is identified as God Himself who became flesh (John 1:1, 14). This is a significant departure from both Jewish and Hellenistic thought, demonstrating the uniqueness of early Christian theology.

    The suggestion that Christianity merely borrowed from Jewish and Hellenistic ideas and evolved them into a more accessible narrative overlooks the revolutionary nature of early Christian claims. Christianity did not simply adapt existing metaphors and mythological frameworks; it introduced a radically new understanding of God, salvation, and the role of Jesus Christ.

    Early Christians proclaimed a historical event—the resurrection of Jesus—that grounded their faith in something tangible and verifiable. The resurrection was not a mystical abstraction or a spiritual metaphor but a public event witnessed by many. This focus on the historical Jesus set Christianity apart from other religious movements, including Gnosticism and the various mystery religions of the time.

    You mention that the evolution of Christianity from Judaism and other cultural influences was similar to how other faiths evolved over time. While there is truth to the fact that all religions develop within their cultural context, Christianity's foundation in historical revelation makes it distinct. The belief in Jesus as the incarnate Son of God was not the result of gradual mythologization but a conviction rooted in the eyewitness accounts of His life, death, and resurrection.

    While the Ascension of Isaiah and other early Christian texts reflect theological development and diverse perspectives, they do not replace or negate the historical core of the Christian faith. The early church’s theological development, such as the doctrine of the Trinity or the understanding of Jesus' dual nature (fully God and fully man), was based on what the earliest Christians believed was revealed through Christ’s life, teachings, and resurrection. These developments were not mere philosophical constructs but an attempt to understand the implications of what they believed had been revealed through Jesus.

    Your argument that Christianity initially may have been more of a mystical or spiritual movement before becoming historicized through the Gospel narratives downplays the importance of historical claims in early Christian belief. Christianity's break from Judaism was not simply a conceptual evolution but a radical, historical claim about Jesus' identity as the resurrected Messiah, which redefined Jewish monotheism in light of His divinity.

    The Gospels are not just creative adaptations to make Christianity more accessible; they are rooted in the eyewitness testimony of those who knew and followed Jesus. Early Christians did not believe in an abstract Christ who existed only in the spiritual realm—they believed in a real, historical person whose life, death, and resurrection transformed their understanding of God and salvation.

    While there are elements of continuity with Jewish and Hellenistic thought, Christianity’s core message—centered on the historical reality of Jesus—represents a dramatic and unique theological development that cannot be reduced to mythologization or mere philosophical adaptation.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    peacefulpete: Is this page loading oddly for everyone else? The comment box is in the center of th page.

    That usually happens if there is a formatting error in one of the previous comments. Like an open quote tag, for example.

  • JohnR1975
    JohnR1975

    So the Jaws only reason for saying Michael must be Jesus is that who else would have the power to battle with and throw Satan and the demons out of heaven.

    So is Abbadon the keeper of keys to the Abyss also Jesus or Michael?

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    The Gospels are not just creative adaptations to make Christianity more accessible; they are rooted in the eyewitness testimony of those who knew and followed Jesus. Early Christians did not believe in an abstract Christ who existed only in the spiritual realm—


    That of course the often-repeated orthodoxy of believers. You are aware however that the Gospels themselves are anonymous works. The names in the identical superscriptions on each were chosen by someone in the mid/late 2nd century with the idea of masking the fact that the Synoptics especially are in fact revisions of the same document and create the myth that they were produced by eyewitness and associates. It seems somewhat ironic that 2 men who were said to be illiterate, (perhaps as a literary device explaining their having not written anything) were later assigned as authors of Gospels. Many other Gospels were similarly attributed to characters within the Gospel story or Pauline material. It is special pleading to insist these 4 are different. Was the Gospel of Thomas written by Thomas? The Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Barnabus, Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Nicodemus and many others?? If the motive for assigning these works to 'eyewitnesses' was to add persuasiveness, why not assume the same for the other 4.

    You again returned to a statement that 'early' Christians believed in a Jesus as the Gospels describe. What you think of as "early" is in my mind already the 2nd or 3rd layer of the onion.


    Ascn, of Isaiah again:

    11. His eyes indeed were open, but his mouth was silent, and the mind in his body was taken up from him.

    12. But his breath was (still) in him, for he was seeing a vision.

    13. And the angel who was sent to show him (the vision) was not of this firmament, nor was he from the angels of glory of this world, but he came from the seventh heaven.

    14. And the people who were standing by, apart from the circle of prophets, did [not] think that the holy Isaiah had been taken up.

    15. And the vision which he saw was not from this world, but from the world which is hidden from the flesh.


    It must be acknowledged that at least some 'early' Christians such as the author and readers of this work (and likely Paul as well) did not understand the passion drama as earthly.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    While it’s true that the Gospels were technically anonymous in the sense that their original manuscripts do not explicitly name the authors, early Christian tradition is quite strong in attributing these works to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. By the second century, church fathers such as Irenaeus and Papias, who had close connections to the apostolic age, clearly identify these figures as the authors. The idea that the names were assigned arbitrarily or as part of a later scheme to lend credibility lacks solid historical evidence. Unlike many apocryphal gospels, which emerged later and were quickly recognized as pseudonymous, the four canonical Gospels were widely accepted early on.

    While there were indeed other gospels—such as those attributed to Thomas, Judas, and Barnabas—these texts do not hold the same historical credibility as the canonical Gospels. The apocryphal gospels typically emerged well after the New Testament period and exhibit Gnostic or heterodox teachings that differ significantly from the core beliefs of early Christianity. Early Christians rejected these works precisely because they did not align with the apostolic tradition that was passed down by those who had direct contact with Jesus or His close followers. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, is dated much later and contains Gnostic elements that were foreign to the apostolic teaching.

    The reason the four canonical Gospels are distinguished from these other texts is not due to some arbitrary attachment of names but because they were tied to recognized apostolic authority. Mark, while not an apostle himself, was a close associate of Peter. Luke, though not one of the Twelve, was a companion of Paul and carefully investigated the events he recorded. These were not random assignments but deliberate connections to figures who had credible access to eyewitness testimony.

    It’s often argued that Matthew and John, being fishermen, would have been illiterate. However, this is an oversimplification. The idea of total illiteracy among the apostles is speculative. Even if Matthew and John had limited formal education, it does not preclude them from composing or dictating their Gospels later in life, as literacy and educational opportunities could have expanded with their ministry. Additionally, writing through scribes (amanuenses) was a common practice in the ancient world, including for those who were literate but preferred to dictate.

    As for Mark and Luke, both had backgrounds and associations that make their authorship credible. Mark, linked to Peter, could have relied on Peter’s firsthand accounts. Luke was a physician, and the literacy expected of his profession supports the idea that he had the skills necessary to compile his Gospel and Acts.

    The claim that the Gospels are simply mythologized revisions of earlier documents lacks strong historical backing. The early Christian belief in Jesus’ bodily resurrection and His earthly ministry is deeply rooted in historical claims, not abstract or purely spiritual ideas. Paul’s letters, written before the Gospels, affirm a real, historical Jesus who was crucified under Pontius Pilate (1 Corinthians 15:3-8). Paul’s references to eyewitnesses, including himself, Peter, and the other apostles, show that the early Christian faith was grounded in real events.

    The idea that "early" Christians (in your view, those before the Gospels) believed in a purely spiritual or heavenly Christ is not supported by the evidence. The earliest Christian texts, including the letters of Paul, consistently speak of Jesus’ earthly life, His death, and His bodily resurrection. The Gospels then build on this foundation, providing more detailed accounts of His ministry, teachings, and miracles. The Gospel accounts were not later fabrications but are deeply tied to the early apostolic witness.

    The Ascension of Isaiah, as you rightly point out, presents a vision of Christ's passion and descent through the heavens. However, this text belongs to the genre of apocalyptic literature, which is highly symbolic and visionary. It is not intended to provide a literal, historical account of Christ’s life and death on earth but to offer a mystical vision of heavenly realities. Apocalyptic literature often uses symbolic language to convey theological truths, which does not mean it reflects the everyday understanding of early Christians about Jesus’ life and death.

    Paul's references to spiritual realms or mystical experiences (such as in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) do not suggest that he believed the passion of Jesus took place only in the heavens. Paul’s theology consistently affirms the historical crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus (Philippians 2:6-8, Romans 6:4), which is central to his gospel message. The Ascension of Isaiah reflects one strand of early Christian mysticism, but it does not negate the historical realities affirmed in the canonical Gospels and the broader New Testament tradition.

    You mention that what I consider “early” Christians are, in your view, the "2nd or 3rd layer of the onion." However, the writings of Paul, the early creeds, and the apostolic fathers demonstrate that from the earliest stages of the Christian movement, Jesus was understood as both fully human and fully divine. The Gospel narratives, far from being mythologized layers added later, reflect the core beliefs that had already been firmly established by the apostolic community.

    The Gospels were not later creations meant to mythologize Jesus or place Him in an earthly context to make Him more relatable. Rather, they faithfully record the testimony of those who were closest to Him, rooted in both eyewitness accounts and divine inspiration. The attempts to discredit the Gospels based on claims of anonymity or apocryphal parallels fail to consider the strong historical and theological evidence for their authenticity and apostolic origin. The early Christians firmly believed in a Jesus who lived, died, and rose again in history—not merely as a spiritual or mythical figure.

    Let me offer you the following apologetic notes on the matter:The fact of divine revelation can be proven in two ways:

    Among all religions, we can use motives of credibility to determine which one is divinely revealed by God.

    We can prove that:

    A) The four Gospels, believed by Christians to be divinely revealed, are authentic historical sources.

    B) According to the four Gospels, Christ claimed to be God.

    C) Christ demonstrated His divinity and mission through miracles and prophecies.

    D) Therefore, Christ's teachings must be considered God's revelation.

    The first method would be too lengthy and is unnecessary. Since it is certain that God cannot provide multiple, contradictory revelations, the second method is entirely satisfactory. Therefore, we must first prove the historical authenticity of the Gospels!

    A) The Historical Authenticity of the Gospels

    Like any literary work, the Gospels' historical authenticity is assured if the following are established:

    a) Contemporaneity (i.e., the Gospels were written within a lifetime of the events they describe). In this case, the authors were either eyewitnesses or received direct information from such witnesses. They were therefore capable of writing the truth and could not intentionally distort the facts, as a large number of eyewitnesses were still alive at the time of the Gospels' creation, who would have objected.

    b) Credibility (i.e., the authors did not intend to falsify).

    c) Textual integrity (i.e., the Gospels we have today are essentially identical to those originally written by their authors).

    Thus, we must prove the contemporaneity, credibility, and textual integrity of the Gospels!

    a) Contemporaneity of the Gospels

    The origin of any literary work can be proven by two types of arguments: external (other writings that refer to or quote from the work) and internal (the style, language, and content of the work itself). External arguments are more decisive since the creation of a work is a historical fact, and historical facts are supported by historical documents (in this case, external arguments). Internal arguments play only a supplementary role.

    External Arguments:

    The Papyrus Egerton and Papyrus Rylands, found in Egypt and dating to around 130 AD, contain literal fragmentary quotes from the Gospel of St. John. Therefore, St. John's Gospel could not have been written after 100 AD, as it was written in Ephesus (a historical fact), and given the primitive transportation and communication conditions of the time, it would have taken at least 30 years for it to be known well enough in Egypt to be quoted.

    In the letter of Pope St. Clement to the Corinthians (95 AD), the Didache (95 AD), the letters of St. Ignatius the Martyr (+110 AD), and the Shepherd of Hermas (150 AD), we find literal or content-based quotes from the Gospels.

    Bishop St. Papias (a disciple of St. John) wrote around 130 AD: "Mark, the interpreter of Peter, accurately recorded the sayings and deeds of the Lord, as he remembered them, but not in order... Matthew composed the sayings in Hebrew" (Papias: "De interpretatione oraculorum dominicorum").

    Bishop St. Irenaeus of Lyons (a disciple of St. Polycarp, who was a disciple of St. John) wrote in his book "Adversus haereses" (174-189 AD): "When Peter and Paul preached the Gospel in Rome and founded the Church, Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. After their death, Mark, Peter's disciple and interpreter, recorded what Peter had preached. Luke, a follower of Paul, wrote down the Gospel that Paul preached. Then John, the Lord's disciple, who leaned on Jesus' breast, also wrote his Gospel while residing in Ephesus in Asia."

    From the third century onwards, references to the Gospels are countless.

    It is also a fact that every heretic of the first three centuries tried to support their teachings with the four Gospels.

    This large number of external textual witnesses is particularly valuable when we consider that Herodotus's name is first mentioned 100 years after his death by Aristotle and then 400 years after his death by Cicero, yet no one doubts the historical authenticity of his writings. How much more absurd it would be to doubt the historical authenticity of the Gospels!

    Internal Arguments:

    St. Matthew's Gospel must have been written before the destruction of Jerusalem (67 AD), because after 67 AD, the author could have easily separated the prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem from the one about the end of the world (chapter 24).

    Although St. Matthew originally wrote his Gospel in Aramaic ("Hebrew") (see the testimonies of St. Papias and St. Irenaeus), he later also wrote it in Greek. Only the Greek version has survived. This Greek version of St. Matthew and the Gospel of St. Mark are full of Hebraisms, indicating that their authors were simple, uneducated Jews. Nevertheless, both Gospels provide detailed accounts of the places and customs of first-century Palestine. All this requires that these two Gospels were written in the first century, as decades after the destruction of Jerusalem, these primitive authors would have been incapable of describing all this.

    The Hebraisms in St. John's Gospel indicate that its author was a Jew. This is further supported by the explanation of messianic ideas and Jewish customs. The vivid character descriptions of the figures indicate that the author was an eyewitness. The author also knows about the "secret" events in Jesus' life (e.g., the nighttime conversation with Nicodemus). This suggests that the author was one of the apostles. Moreover, since instead of the name of St. John the Apostle, this Gospel always refers to "the disciple whom Jesus loved," it follows that the author was St. John himself. In this case, the use of this phrase is understandable (St. John's modesty explains it!), while everything else would be inexplicable. Moreover, the last chapter explicitly states: "This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them."

    The internal arguments also point to the first-century origin of the Gospels. Therefore, David Strauss's (19th century) claim that the Gospels were written around 150 AD and contain myths is untenable.

    b) Credibility of the Gospels

    The Gospel of St. Mark, whose author was the interpreter of St. Peter, candidly recounts St. Peter's fall.

    The Gospels also describe the human frailties of the other apostles: they cannot keep watch with Christ for even one hour; after His arrest, they all flee, except for Peter and John, who follow from a distance; St. Thomas doubts Christ's resurrection; they are cowardly during the storm at sea (Mt. 8:28); they compete for supremacy (Lk. 9:46-48); they often do not understand Christ's words (e.g., Lk. 18:34); they harbor thoughts of revenge (Lk. 9:52-54); they are jealous (Lk. 9:49).

    The evangelists do not idealize Jesus: they describe how some people despise Christ because He is the carpenter's son (Mt. 13:54), etc.

    However, if the evangelists were frauds, as Bauer (19th century) claimed, they would have certainly omitted these unfavorable details!

    Their credibility was sealed by the fact that — with the exception of St. John — they all gave their lives for the content of these books!

    c) Textual Integrity of the Gospels

    The oldest textual witnesses: Papyrus Egerton and Papyrus Rylands, the two nearly complete Gospel texts: the 4th-century Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, and the mentioned Church Fathers essentially provide the same text as the Gospels we have today. The various textual variations (the so-called lectio varians) mostly pertain to word order, synonymous words, and copying and spelling errors. The approximately 10 (!) substantive lectio varians do not affect the facts narrated by the Gospels or the essence of their teachings!

    The textual integrity of the Gospels is a unique phenomenon in literary history!

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The subordination of the Son to the Father only became a problem when the initial teaching about Jesus being a mighty spirit creature was abandoned in favour of the new Trinitarian orthodoxy. Martin Werner explain the development.

    The Primitive Christian conception of the Messiah as a high angelic being also explains for us the fact, which is of great doctrinal importance, that in the Primitive Christian are there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was, in terms of late-Jewish apocalyptic, a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages, against the daimonic-powers of the existing world, the new aeon of the Kingdom of God. Hence there was no ground for any new problem concerning the relationship of Christ to God. On this decisive point, on which everything depends, further clarification is necessary. Because the relationship of Christ to God the Father was conditioned by the direct and essential connection of the concept of the Christ with the doctrine of angels, that relation-ship was understood unequivocally as being one of 'subordination', ie. in the sense of the subordination of Christ to God. Wherever in the New Testament the relationship of Jesus to God, the Father, is brought into consideration, whether with reference to his appearance as a man or to his Messianic status, it is conceived of and represented categorically as subordination. And the most decisive Subordinationist of the New Testament, according to the Synoptic record, was Jesus himself (cf. for example Mk. x, 18; xiii, 32; xiv, 36). This original position, firm and manifest as it was, was able to maintain itself for a long time. 'All the great pre-Nicene theologians repre-sented the subordination of the Logos to God.'' The Trinitarian problem first emerged when the Church in its theology was constrained for certain reasons, which were connected with the process of de-eschatologising, to abandon the concept of subordination for that of coordination. Almost insoluble difficulties then inevitably produced themselves, which in turn necessarily provoked great strife. They concerned, on the one side, the concept of God, and, on the other, the relationship of the new theology to the New Testament as the canon of dogma.

    Martin Werner, The Formation of Christian Dogma (1957), pages 124 and 125.


    The whole book is well worth reading.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    aqwsed.....I'm sure you are sincere and the response you just posted was convincing to you.
    The evangelists do not idealize Jesus: they describe how some people despise Christ because He is the carpenter's son (Mt. 13:54), etc.
    However, if the evangelists were frauds, as Bauer (19th century) claimed, they would have certainly omitted these unfavorable details!

    Or more likely the writer used the term 'tekton' craftsman/builder due to the popularized interpretation of Zech 1. There would 4 craftsman who would serve as Messianic figures. The One called Messiah ben Joseph (son of Joseph) would be killed but another named Messiah ben David would succeed in conquering the enemies of Israel. It was brilliant use of OT source material for the Gospels to say Jesus as the son of Joseph was killed but as son of David, he would be a conqueror.

    There is also the then common expectation that the Messiah would rebuild the Temple at play.

    And of course, the standard trope of humble beginning (such as David, Moses etc.) and reversal of fate/expectations (peripeteia) is at play. Fleshing out the story using OT and related materials as well as literary standards.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @peacefulpete

    You argue that the term "tekton" (craftsman or builder) may have been used in the Gospels to align Jesus with the prophetic figure of Messiah ben Joseph, a messianic figure from later Jewish tradition who was expected to suffer and die, with Messiah ben David emerging later as the conquering figure.

    While this is an interesting interpretation, it lacks solid historical evidence. The idea of a Messiah ben Joseph is not attested in Jewish writings until much later, primarily in rabbinic literature. By the time the Gospels were written, there was no unified, widespread belief among Jews that the Messiah would take on these two distinct roles. The suffering servant figure in Isaiah 53 was not universally understood to be a messianic figure, and the notion of a suffering Messiah was, in fact, a significant stumbling block for Jews (1 Corinthians 1:23). The idea that Jesus could be both a suffering Messiah and the triumphant Messiah ben David was an unexpected and radical claim for early Christians, not a literary device drawn from the OT.

    You mention the common literary trope of a humble beginning followed by a reversal of fate, as seen in figures like David and Moses, and suggest that this might have influenced the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospels. While it’s true that such reversals are common in literature, it doesn’t undermine the historical reliability of the Gospels. In fact, if the Gospel writers were simply crafting a story to fit OT expectations, they would have likely portrayed Jesus in ways that better aligned with the Jewish messianic hopes of their time. However, Jesus' life and ministry repeatedly contradicted those expectations.

    For instance:

    • Many Jews expected the Messiah to be a political and military leader who would overthrow Roman rule, yet Jesus rejected political power (John 6:15).
    • The idea of a crucified Messiah was not only unexpected but scandalous, as crucifixion was a humiliating and cursed form of death (Deuteronomy 21:23). The evangelists would not have invented such an idea if they were simply trying to "flesh out" a messianic narrative.

    The Gospels consistently portray a Messiah who defies conventional expectations, not one who neatly fits into pre-existing tropes or OT patterns. This unexpectedness actually supports their authenticity, as it is unlikely that early Christians would fabricate a story that would be so difficult for both Jews and Gentiles to accept.

    You suggest that the expectation that the Messiah would rebuild the Temple may have influenced the portrayal of Jesus as a builder. While it’s true that there was an expectation that the Messiah would restore or rebuild the Temple, Jesus reinterpreted this expectation in a radical way, claiming that His own body was the true Temple (John 2:19-21). This reinterpretation of messianic expectations would not have been a typical or easy narrative to accept, especially for Jewish audiences deeply attached to the physical Temple.

    You imply that the Gospel writers were using OT material to craft a story, suggesting a kind of literary artistry rather than historical reporting. However, the Gospels’ inclusion of unfavorable details about Jesus and the apostles supports their credibility. For instance:

    • The apostles are often portrayed as misunderstanding Jesus, arguing about who is the greatest, and abandoning Him in His final hours.
    • Jesus Himself is portrayed as being rejected by His own people, mocked, and crucified—a humiliating and cursed form of death.

    If the Gospel writers were merely crafting a story to fit OT expectations or literary conventions, they would have likely omitted these unflattering details to present a more convincing, triumphant narrative. Instead, they faithfully recorded these difficult and embarrassing details, which suggests a commitment to accurately reporting the events rather than constructing a neatly packaged story.

    You mention that the Gospels were anonymous works and that the names of the authors were assigned later. While it’s true that the Gospels do not explicitly name their authors within the texts themselves, the consistent and early tradition of attributing the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is strong. Early Church Fathers such as Papias, Irenaeus, and others provide external testimony linking these figures to the Gospels.

    Moreover, if the early Church had simply invented authorship to lend credibility to these texts, they likely would have chosen more prominent apostles like Peter or James. The fact that two of the Gospels are attributed to non-apostles (Mark and Luke) and that Matthew and John were not the most prominent apostles supports the authenticity of the traditional authorship rather than a deliberate fabrication.

    @slimboyfat

    You cite passages from the New Testament, such as Mark 10:18 and 13:32, to support the idea that Jesus is subordinate to God. It’s important to note that these passages, while they may seem to suggest subordination, do not imply an essential inequality in divine nature. Rather, they highlight the distinct roles within the Godhead.

    · Mark 10:18 ("Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."): Here, Jesus does not deny His divinity but redirects the focus to God the Father. In context, this is a rhetorical device that invites the person to consider who Jesus truly is. Jesus often spoke in ways that were not immediately clear, leading to deeper reflection.

    · Mark 13:32 ("But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."): This reflects the voluntary limitation of Jesus in His human incarnation. Philippians 2:6-7 explains that Jesus "emptied Himself" and took on the form of a servant. This self-limitation in knowledge is not an indication of inferiority in essence but a reflection of His role in the economy of salvation.

    These verses point to a distinction in the roles of the Father and the Son, but they do not necessarily imply subordination in terms of nature or essence. Early Christian belief, as evidenced in the New Testament, did not simply view Jesus as a high-ranking angelic being but as divine.

    The idea that early Christians conceived of Jesus as merely a "high angelic being" is not supported by the broader New Testament evidence. In fact, the New Testament repeatedly affirms Christ’s divine status in ways that go beyond any angelic or created being:

    · John 1:1-3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made." This passage places Jesus (the Word) as eternally existing with God and being fully divine. He is not a created angel but the one through whom all things were created.

    · Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word." This verse clearly shows that the Son is not an angelic being, but the very expression of God’s essence, sharing in the full nature of God.

    · Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus is described as "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him." This does not imply that Jesus is a created being but rather that He is supreme over creation, through whom all creation came into being.

    These passages present Christ as fundamentally divine, co-equal with God the Father, and far surpassing the role of an angelic figure. The argument that Jesus was merely a high-ranking angelic being misinterprets key New Testament texts.

    Werner’s argument that the early Church only developed the doctrine of the Trinity due to philosophical influence and the abandonment of the "original" subordinationist view overlooks the fact that the early Christians grappled with the divinity of Christ from the beginning. The Trinitarian doctrine emerged as a way to understand and systematize the biblical witness to Christ’s divinity alongside monotheism.

    As early as the first century, Christians were debating the nature of Christ, not because they were imposing new ideas on the faith, but because they were trying to make sense of the revelation of Christ as fully divine and yet distinct from the Father. The Gospel of John (John 1:1) already places Christ in direct equivalence with God, and the early Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus explicitly affirm Christ’s divinity long before the Councils of Nicaea or Constantinople.

    The development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a response to heresies like Arianism, which denied the full divinity of Christ. The Church was not introducing new ideas but was defending the belief that had been present from the start: that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. The use of philosophical terminology (like "homoousios") was a way to clarify the Church’s position in the face of heretical challenges, not an abandonment of earlier teaching.

    The doctrine of the Trinity is not „a later invention” but a clarification of what was already present in the apostolic witness. Even pre-Nicene Fathers like Tertullian (late 2nd century) used Trinitarian language, describing God as "one in substance, three in persons" (Adv. Praxeas, ch. 2). This shows that the seeds of the doctrine were already present well before the formal definitions of the fourth century.

    While some early theologians, particularly in the pre-Nicene period, expressed a form of subordinationis, this view was not universal or permanent. Many of these early thinkers were still grappling with how to articulate the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Nicene Creed clarified this by affirming that the Son is "of one substance" (homoousios) with the Father, fully God.

    Theological developments like this do not represent a departure from earlier Christian belief but rather a more precise articulation of the mystery of God’s nature in response to theological challenges. The early Christians believed in the divinity of Christ, but it took time to fully develop the language and framework to express this belief within the bounds of monotheism.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit