Do JWs believe Jesus is an angel?

by slimboyfat 152 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    "The Council of Florence affirms"

    Why should anyone care what the Council of Florence says?
    You all complain about the governing body but these councils are far worse.

    "identity of Jesus as the divine Logos. The text explicitly states, "the Word was God", affirming the full divinity of Christ. The absence of the definite article before "theos" in the original Greek is a grammatical feature that emphasizes the qualitative aspect of the Word's divinity, not a denial of His deity."

    "it is not a sign of inferiority but a reflection of their eternal relationship within the Godhead." There is no Godhead. That is not even a word.

    I notice that so many religious people use big and fancy words that have no meanings and they forget what Tyndale said "
    “If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy who drives a plough to know more of the scriptures than you do.”".

    And we end up knowing more than they do because they are focused on made up words.

    The ENGLISH text says "The Word was God". You also mentioned the divine Logos and Word's divinity. That's different from "The Word was God", that is renaming Jesus as the God of old, not relating qualities within him as being a spriit being.

    "The doctrine of the Trinity emphasizes that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share one essence, one divinity, and one power."
    This is why it is wrong.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Rattigan350

    1. "Why should anyone care what the Council of Florence says? You all complain about the governing body but these councils are far worse."

    For example, you should care about, because then you might find out that Trinitarian Christian theology is defined in such a way that by definition it includes that the Son received everything from the Father, so the fact that you show that the Son received all his knowledge from the Father, you refute nothing of this definition. You know, in the best case, we read after what we actually want to refute, avoiding the straw man arguments.

    The Council of Florence, like other ecumenical councils in Christian history, represents the unified decisions of the early Christian Church. These councils, including Florence, were convened to clarify theological issues based on biblical teaching and the tradition passed down from the apostles. Ecumenical councils involved a wide array of bishops, theologians, and early Church leaders from across different regions and churches, relying on Scripture and centuries of tradition. The conclusions they reached were debated extensively, and they built on the apostolic faith handed down from the time of Christ and his apostles.

    While you may reject these councils' authority, they have played a vital role in ensuring the consistency and orthodoxy of Christian teaching throughout history, including the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity, which is rooted in Scripture.

    2. "There is no Godhead. That is not even a word."

    This claim is incorrect. The term "Godhead" is indeed a legitimate word in Christian theology and even in Scripture itself. For instance, the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible uses the term "Godhead" in Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. In Colossians 2:9, Paul writes, "For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The term "Godhead" refers to the divine nature or essence of God and is used to describe the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as sharing one divine substance.

    The rejection of the word based on its unfamiliarity or perceived complexity does not invalidate its theological importance. It has been part of Christian discourse for centuries and is grounded in biblical language.

    3. "Big and fancy words that have no meanings..."

    You criticize the use of theological terms like "Godhead" and "Logos" as being overly complicated, but it’s important to recognize that precision in language helps avoid confusion in theological discussions. The early Church used terms like "Logos" (Greek for "Word") and "Godhead" to express the depth of Christian beliefs, rooted in Scripture. The word "Logos" in John 1:1 is not a "fancy word" but a direct translation from the original Greek text. It was used to describe Jesus as the pre-existent divine Word, a concept that was well understood by both Jews and Gentiles at the time.

    Furthermore, William Tyndale's quote about a ploughboy understanding Scripture does not mean we should avoid theological depth. Tyndale’s point was that Scripture should be accessible to everyone, not that it should be oversimplified or stripped of meaningful concepts. Theology often requires precision to avoid misunderstanding God’s nature, especially regarding complex doctrines like the Trinity.

    4. "The English text says 'The Word was God.'... That's different from 'The Word was God', that is renaming Jesus as the God of old."

    You appear to contradict themselves here, stating that "The Word was God" (John 1:1) but then arguing that this isn’t about Jesus being fully divine. However, John 1:1 clearly presents Jesus (the Word) as divine. The absence of the definite article in the Greek before "theos" (God) in John 1:1c emphasizes the quality of the Word’s divinity, not its inferiority. This construction tells us that Jesus shares the very nature of God, not that He is "a god" or merely divine in some lesser sense.

    The argument that Jesus is "renaming" God is also misguided. The New Testament identifies Jesus as God (John 20:28, Titus 2:13) while distinguishing Him as a distinct person from the Father. The doctrine of the Trinity reconciles these truths: that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons but one in essence.

    5. "The doctrine of the Trinity emphasizes that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share one essence... This is why it is wrong."

    You claim that the Trinity is wrong without providing evidence to support their stance. The doctrine of the Trinity is the logical conclusion drawn from Scripture's teaching about the nature of God. The Bible reveals:

    • God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4).
    • Jesus is divine (John 1:1, John 8:58, Colossians 2:9).
    • The Holy Spirit is divine (Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16).
    • The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons (Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14).

    The Trinity is not a philosophical invention, but rather a way to understand and explain the complexity of the biblical revelation of God. The oneness of essence and the three distinct persons is the best way to reconcile the various teachings of the Bible about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  • Duran
    Duran

    [12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God,]

    [ 21 To the one who conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, just as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.]

    [31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.]

    [4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Days ago, slimboy screenshot an excerpt from a book discussing the evolution of the messiah concept. That book and many others have demonstrated, very convincingly, that among the diverse sects of Hellenized Judaism a matrix of pre-Christian concepts gelled into Christianity. The 'Two Powers' theology, "The Great Angel", Holy Spirit, Wisdom, Shekhinah, Light, Logos and Son of God, Son of Man, concepts all occur or were understood as embodied emanations of God during second temple Judaism. Substitutes for God as it were. When the first Christians 'perceived' from these texts and 'visions' an invisible drama of the Christ descending from the highest regions of heaven and being hung on a tree by wicked spirits, their seemingly foreign ideas were actually a natural extension of a sophisticated Jewish ideation of God and Messianism. Given the diversity of Judaism and Hellenism that inspired Christianity, it would seem unrealistic to insist upon a singular picture of 'original' Christianity. In this model of Christian origins, we begin with broad strokes of belief in divine salvation through an invisible emissary of God.

    As I've expressed before, it appears certain second/third generation Christians adapted Old testament narratives to dramatize the invisible. They freely drew from the OT, hundreds of story and prophetic elements to 'flesh out' what was understood as spirit. I suspect that the original form of Mark was a didactic play for recruitment or instruction. Christ was given a name, Emmanuel and Joshuah, his father was Joseph, the towns he lived in were Bethlehem and Nazareth, he walked the exact routes of OT figures, he sat at the same well, he performed the OT miracles, all drawn from the OT and related writings. The popularity of this dramatization unfortunately led to literalization. Christianity was transformed via euhemerism. What was once an esoteric faith in the divine formed through visionary interpretation was overlain with a cult of a literary person killed by Romans. The Church Fathers and others created a hybrid of the two. They were intellectually attracted to the higher Christology of the original but leaned on the literalizations as a defense. The same continues today.

    Is it any wonder debates about the nature of this Christ have continued for 2000 years? The modern selection of texts used for these debates were chosen by Church Fathers and later leaders to permit both a fully divine Christ and a fully human Joshua.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    peacefulpete, your second paragraph seems to suggest a mythicist interpretation of early Christianity. Mythicism is rejected by scholars as being almost on a par with flat-earth theories.

    Your first paragraph is correct that early Christians drew on concepts Jews were already familiar with to make sense of who Jesus was, such as Wisdom, Logos, Son of Man, and so on. These pointed to a ‘second god’ who was distinct from and subject to God. As scholar of ancient Judaism, Peter Shäfer describes it:

    The two Gods of ancient Judaism are not antagonistic powers fighting against each other but instead rule peacefully with and next to one another. This is of course always on the assumption that one of the two is the ancestral "first" (as a rule, older) God of higher rank, who generously makes space in heaven next to and beneath him for the second (as a rule, younger) God.

    Peter Schâfer, Two Gods in Heaven: Jewish Concepts of God in Antiquity (2020), page 135.

    For the early Christians, as these concepts were applied to Jesus, he remained distinct and subordinate to God, as New Testament scholar John Ziesler explains (when discussing Philippians 2:5–11):

    The ruling function that belongs properly to Yahweh alone is now Christ's also; he is cosmic Lord and as such receives the honour that hitherto has been given only to Yahweh.
    Yet before we rashly conclude that the two have simply become identified, we must note that the element of subordination remains. It all happens, even the exaltation of Christ, 'to the glory of God the Father' (v. 11), and Christ does not exalt himself but is exalted by God and is given the title 'Lord' by him (v. 9). Christ has become the bearer of the powers of God and the recipient of divine homage (v. 10), but is still distinct from him and subject to him.

    John Ziesler, Pauline Christianity (1990), page 46.

    It was not until subsequent centuries that Jesus was conflated with God and eventually made part of a Trinity of equals. Geza Vermes explains the process this way:

    By the start of the fourth century the church, although not wholly ready, was pressed to make up her mind. The divine quality of Christ, the Son of God, his closeness to God the Father, his pre-existence and role in the creation of the universe were generally agreed by all the leading thinkers. They also agreed on a lack of equality between the Father and the Son. Even Origen was adamant: the Father was ‘the God', the Son was only 'God'; he was ‘second God', placing himself below the Master of the universe. Every single mouthpiece of Christian tradition from Paul and John to Origen firmly held that the Father was in some way above the Son. The ante-Nicene church was ‘subordinationist' and did not believe in the full co-equality and co-eternity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit …

    All the evidence we possess of nearly three centuries of theological thinking on the subject would suggest that, after some give and take, a creed quietly voicing Arius' ideas would have commanded a substantial majority among the bishops assembled at Nicaea, Yet the dogma of consubstantiality (homoousia) triumphed, no doubt thanks to the clever politicking of the party led by Bishop Alexander and Athanasius, which succeeded in winning over to their side the all-powerful emperor. After some ebbing and flowing, belief in the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father ultimately prevailed in the fourth-century church, and the profession of this belief became the authenticating stamp of post-Nicene Christianity.

    Yet it is impossible to ignore the colossal difference between the Christ concept of Nicaea and the Christology that preceded the council. The idea of consubstantiality never occurred to any of the leading representatives of Christianity prior to 325; it would have indeed sounded anathema. By contrast, after 325 the claim of inequality between Father and Son amounted to heresy.

    Geza Vermes, Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30–325 (2013), pages 241 and 242.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    Faith of Our Fathers (Part 1): Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    Faith of Our Fathers (Part 2): Were the Early Christians Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    The claim that early Christians saw Jesus “as distinct and subordinate to God”, and that only later did he become part of a “Trinity of equals,” overlooks critical early Christian texts that suggest otherwise. The New Testament, particularly in the writings of Paul and the Gospels, already indicates a high Christology. In passages such as John 1:1-3, the Logos (Word) is not only with God but is also explicitly called God, which directly counters the idea that Jesus was seen only as a subordinate figure until later centuries.

    Geza Vermes, while influential in highlighting Jesus' Jewish roots, is critiqued for underestimating the early Christian devotion to Jesus as divine. Rowan Williams, in his review of Vermes' Christian Beginnings, points out that the rapid development of devotion to Jesus as divine among Jewish followers was not an innovation of the fourth century but can be traced back to the very first generation of Christians. Williams argues that such devotion escalated within the first century, propelled by charismatic experiences of the resurrected Jesus, thus challenging the claim that the Council of Nicaea introduced something entirely new or “revolutionary”.

    And it is a fact that Vermes is not exactly known as a researcher of patristics, and it is not appropriate for him to make such bold claims.There are numerous external and internal sources indicating that early Christians believed Jesus to be God, not Michael, long before Nicaea. For example:

    • Pliny the Younger (61–113), governor of the provinces of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan around 112 about how to handle Christians who refused to worship the emperor, instead "they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god".
    • Tacitus (circa 56–120) wrote that during the Eucharistic ceremonies, Christians consumed the body and blood of their God, which was misunderstood as cannibalism. This clearly demonstrates that early Christians believed in the divinity of Jesus and in His real presence in the Eucharist.
    • The Alexamenos Graffito: "Alexamenos worships [his] God," also disproves the Jehovah's Witnesses' concept of the "torture stake."
    "While it is true that the new freedom the church experienced under Constantine did have its negative side, it doesn’t follow that the church “fell” as some say. Throughout history the church has made mistakes in its dealings with secular society and in knowing how to properly handle the freedom and power it has experienced. Some complain today that Christians become too wedded to political parties, courting compromise in the process. This was no different in Constantine’s day. That there was a new coloring to the church when it became established under Constantine, there is no debate. But the idea that the church quickly became corrupt, and that the councils convened during his reign were simply pawns of the emperor is simplistic. The church continued to be faithful to the task of clarifying and passing on the apostolic tradition. “The faith professed and practiced in the early churches was not determined by the political machinations of emperors and episcopal hierarchies,” says Williams. “The essential formulation and construction of the Christian identity was something that the fourth century received and continued to expand upon through its biblical exegesis and liturgical life as reflected in the credal Tradition.”Consider what came out of the period of Constantine’s reign. Says Williams:
    I am claiming the late patristic period functioned as a kind of doctrinal canon by which all subsequent developments of theology were measured up to the present day. The great creeds of the period, the development of Trinitarian and Christological theology, the finalization of the biblical canon, doctrines pertaining to the human soul and being made in the image of God, to the fall and redemption, to justification by faith, and so on, find their first and (in many cases) enduring foothold in this period. All theological steps later taken, in confirmation or denial, will begin on the trail marked by the early Fathers. . . . The theology that developed after Constantine was not a movement radically subversive to Scripture and to the apostolic faith. On the contrary, the major creeds and doctrinal deliberations were a conscious extension of the earlier Tradition and teaching of the New Testament while attempting, in light new challenges, to articulate a Christian understanding of God and salvation." (Source)

    This "Great Apostasy" is not only completely unfounded silly conspiracy theory, it is a desperate forcing of his own heretic ideology into antiquity, even though this theology was invented only by the cult leader on his desk in the open Bible: "ah I think is the correct meaning of the text, so the ancient Christians must have believed it so as well. Oh, the sources do not indicated this? Ah, because that sources are 'apostate' ones, and a good ones were destroyed."

    While you refer to John Ziesler’s comments about the subordination of Christ to God in Philippians 2:5-11, it’s important to note that early Christian texts frequently explore the mystery of the relationship between Jesus and God. Though Philippians speaks of Christ's humility and God’s exaltation of him, it does not imply that Christ is merely a subordinate being. In fact, Christ is given the divine title “Lord,” and the hymn suggests that he pre-existed before his earthly life. This indicates an early recognition of Christ’s unique relationship with God, which is foundational to Trinitarian theology, even if not fully articulated in its later, more developed form.

    You identify correctly that early Christians used concepts familiar to Jewish thought, such as Wisdom and Logos, to understand Jesus. However, the comparison of these figures to Jesus doesn't diminish Christ’s divine status in Christian theology. In John’s Gospel, the Logos is not just an abstract concept or a secondary power but fully divine, and intimately involved in creation (John 1:1-3). Early Christians saw Jesus as embodying these concepts in a uniquely personal and divine way, unlike the impersonal Wisdom or Shekhinah in Jewish thought.

    Peter Schäfer's Two Gods in Heaven highlights a distinct idea in some strands of Jewish thought, but this concept cannot be directly applied to early Christian understanding of Jesus. In Judaism, the "second god" concept was more of a speculative theology—ideas about intermediaries like angels or personified Wisdom. However, the New Testament never presents Jesus as a mere intermediary or lesser god. Instead, Jesus is consistently depicted as possessing the same divine nature as God the Father, even while fulfilling distinct roles within the Godhead.

    For example, in John 1:1, Jesus (the Logos) is declared to be both "with God" and "was God," affirming His full divinity. The Shema—the central confession of Jewish monotheism—was reinterpreted by early Christians to include Jesus within the one God of Israel (1 Corinthians 8:6). This shows that early Christians did not see Jesus as a separate, subordinate deity but as fully sharing in the divine identity of the one true God.

    The argument based on Philippians 2:5-11, as presented by John Ziesler, suggests that Jesus is distinct and subordinate because He is exalted by God and His exaltation is "to the glory of God the Father." However, this interpretation misses the key theological point of the passage, which emphasizes Jesus' pre-existence in the form of God, His voluntary humiliation, and His subsequent exaltation as the Lord of all creation.

    The phrase "being in the form of God" refers to Jesus' pre-existent divinity, showing that He already shared in God's nature before His incarnation. The passage says that Jesus "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"—not because He lacked equality, but because He willingly chose not to cling to it for His own advantage. This reinforces Jesus' divinity, not His subordination.

    Jesus' taking on "the form of a servant" refers to His incarnation—His voluntary assumption of human nature. His subsequent exaltation to the highest place and receiving "the Name above every name" (v. 9) confirms His sovereign lordship over creation. While the passage states that this exaltation is "to the glory of God the Father" (v. 11), it does not imply ontological subordination, especially not ontological inferiority. Rather, it highlights the distinct roles within the Godhead, where the Son's exaltation brings glory to the Father in a relationship of mutual honor.

    In Trinitarian theology, the Son's submission to the Father during His earthly ministry and even in His exaltation does not negate His equality with the Father in essence. It reflects a functional distinction, not a difference in nature or divinity.

    The argument assumes that because Jesus is exalted by the Father, He must be subordinate in essence. This reflects a misunderstanding of the distinction between ontological equality and functional subordination within the Trinity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in essence and nature, sharing the same divine attributes. However, they carry out distinct roles in the economy of salvation.

    In His incarnation, Jesus humbled Himself and became obedient to the Father's will. This submission, however, is part of the Son’s role in the work of redemption, not an indication of inferiority. Jesus' exaltation to "the Name above every name" (Philippians 2:9) is a public affirmation of His divine status, which He already possessed in His pre-incarnate state. It is a return to the glory He had with the Father "before the world existed" (John 17:5).

    The idea that early Christians mythologized Jesus and only later literalized his divinity (euhemerism) oversimplifies the complex theological developments of the early church. As David Brakke points out in his critique of Vermes, Vermes has to work hard to dismiss the early devotion to Jesus as divine, particularly the early Christian accounts of the resurrection and texts like the Philippians hymn. The exalted status of Jesus, even as early as the Pauline letters, contradicts the claim that Christ’s divinity was a later imposition.

    While the Council of Nicaea in 325 clarified the nature of Christ's divinity in response to Arianism, it did not "invent" the idea of Christ’s divinity. Nicaea formalized what had been widely believed for centuries—that Jesus Christ is “of one substance” with the Father. Early Christian worship, prayers directed to Jesus, and theological reflections in the New Testament demonstrate that belief in Jesus’ divinity was foundational long before Nicaea. The council was not introducing a new doctrine but defending what was already practiced by the early church against emerging heresies.

    The development of Christian theology, particularly the doctrine of the Trinity, was not a sudden fourth-century invention but rooted in the earliest Christian experiences of Jesus as both Lord and God. Early texts like the Gospels and Pauline letters reflect a high Christology that acknowledges Jesus' divine role alongside the Father, while the Council of Nicaea served to clarify and protect this belief, rather than “create” it.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Mythicism is rejected by scholars as being almost on a par with flat-earth theories.

    LOL, ironically the 'historicist' position could be regarded the 'flat earth theory' in light of the fresh scholarship on Christian origins. The 'Mythicist' label is deliberately used pejoratively by some who have not even familiarized themselves with the best arguments. Much like you did.

    In short, the ingredients were all there, the political timing was right and the earliest writings we have reveal an otherwise bizarre absence of historical markers. I'd not expect you to change your views on a couple posts, give serious consideration to an introduction to the evidence in :On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt: Carrier, Richard: 0884967420701: Amazon.com: Books

  • vienne
    vienne

    This discussion is unproductive. Asq argues by Ipse dixit, misdirection and reliance on Catholic councils, but not on scripture. For instance, when we were discussing Micah 5:2 he wrote

    "You reference Micah 5:2, interpreting "begotten" as implying a beginning or origin. However, a closer examination of Micah 5:2 reveals that the Messiah's origins are described as "from of old, from ancient times." The Hebrew word used here, olam, often refers to eternity or a time beyond human comprehension. This indicates that the Messiah's existence stretches back into eternity, not simply to a distant point in time. This suggests that the Messiah is eternal, aligning with the Christian understanding of Jesus as eternally existent with God the Father"

    This is misdirection in the extreme. The operative word in Micah 5:2 is "origin." Jesus is indeed ancient, though the definition of olam as "eternity" is flawed. His age is indeed beyond human comprehension, but the reference is still to an origin, a point in time, a time when he went forth.

    The only time olam (עולם) is used in any sense close to eternity is when considering future events, and then its basic meaning is "to the horizon" or as far into the future as humans can see. In Micah it only means in the far distant past. The NAB, a Catholic translation, acknowledges that by rendering the verse: "Whose origin is from of old/ from ancient times." The Jerusalem Bible, also a Catholic translation and a much better one than the NAB has it thus: "his origin goes back to the distant past, to the days of old." To appeal to olam as an indication of eternal existence ignores both the usage of the word in context and its antecedent in the word "origins" (וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו). Note that most modern translations so render it; Brown, Driver, Briggs so define מוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו, as do L. Koehler and W. Baumgartner.

    The problem here is that asq is afraid to stay on point. He squirms and grasps at anything from a medieval translation of little merit, to a Catholic assembly of Bishops none of which carry the weight of scripture, to seeing his own verbiage as carrying the wright of scripture. In that light, I do not see merit in continuing the discussion. The plain word of scripture has little meaning to him. The 'slant' he can put on it that might put his mind at rest means all. This discussion resembles a debate among Scholastic Philosophers. While many here present sound scriptural argument, he will avoid it.

    Proverbs 10:19: "When words are many, sin is unavoidable"



  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    This is misdirection in the extreme. The operative word in Micah 5:2 is "origin." Jesus is indeed ancient, though the definition of olam as "eternity" is flawed. His age is indeed beyond human comprehension, but the reference is still to an origin, a point in time, a time when he went forth....

    Actually you are equally disregarding the intent of the author. As I briefly said the context says simply that the promised King would be from an ancient clan of Ephrathah, the origins of which were "from of old, from ancient times". There is nothing about a prehuman spirit implied.

  • vienne
    vienne

    The scripture - Micah 5 - is quoted in the new testament as referring to Jesus. So I'm not ignoring the context.

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