Why do people waste time with people like this?
Through everything... do you feel that you learned soemthing?
by anotheropenviewpoint 72 Replies latest jw friends
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happyout
Logansrun,
Actually, I despise "trolls" or people who appear to be trolls like SOJ, but Anotheropenviewpoint appears to be asking a legitimate question. I have also found that there are some exJWs who refuse to believe that they learned anything good from the WTS, and while that may be their experience, it's not mine. I have no problem seeing the "good" things that I learned, but I would never go back because all the good was way outshined by the bad.
I also think it's good to have people who have diverse opinions and can express them intelligently and without rancor. This person appears to be able to do that, and I actually look forward to seeing what else they have to offer.
Happyout
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GentlyFeral
Do you feel as though you did learn something while you were there though.... ?
As a Jehovah's witness, I learned:
- How to find my way around a Bible -- but most of the so-called facts I learned are probably wrong. I no longer trust anything I learned about the Bible as a JW.
- How to rationalize -- and it's true, smart people are more susceptible to doctrinal flimflammery and other cultic bull****. It's all too similar to the skills used in detective work and logic puzzles.
- Respect for freedom, by having it taken away from me; but the robbery was so gradual that it took me over 20 years to learn the lesson.
- How precious my conscience is -- just before it was too late to save it.
- Obedience. Far too well.
GentlyFeral
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Jessica Rabbit
Yes. I have learned that when I went straight to the BIBLE without any other literature, I finally saw the message. There is a God. There is an evil spirit named Satan who is the best liar in the universe, and just like he convinced Eve to eat the forbidden fruit, he has convinced many people that there is a TRUE religion. He even convinces them of the benefits they will reap if they join it and never screw up. I have learned that I received a chance of eternal life just for being in existence. It is already bought and paid for. All I am required to do is have love for my fellowman and the one who saved my worthless little butt. THAT'S IT!
Jessica Rabbit
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Dansk
Hi Anotheropenviewpoint (what a mouthful!).
I learnt pain from the organisation - and from this pain I made sure I no longer took things at face value, nor took the word of man literally. It is obvious you are passionate about your belief, but please realise we were all once just as passionate. Yes, we HAVE learned from being JWs - some good, some excrutiatingly bad!
AOV (that's easier!), Watchtower sets great emphasis on making God's name known - and yet 'Jehovah' is completely erroneous, as is the name 'Jesus'.
You wrote:
I gave up in my own ability to decide or "know" what is truth, only through prayer do I ask God (Jehovah) personally to use me in his will, Whether or not he chooses to do so is up to him.
The word ‘Jehovah’ dates only from the year 1520 (cf. Hastings, "Dictionary of the Bible", II, 1899, p. 199: Gesenius-Buhl, "Handwörterbuch", 13th ed., 1899, p. 311). Drusius (loc. cit., 344) represents Peter Galatinus as the inventor of the word Jehovah, and Fagius as it propagator in the world of scholars and commentators. But the writers of the sixteenth century, Catholic and Protestant (e.g. Cajetan and Théodore de Bèze), are perfectly familiar with the word. Galatinus himself ("Areana cathol. veritatis", I, Bari, 1516, a, p. 77) represents the form as known and received in his time. Besides, Drusius (loc. cit., 351) discovered it in Porchetus, a theologian of the fourteenth century.
Finally, the word is found even in the "Pugio fidei" of Raymund Martin, a work written about 1270 (ed. Paris, 1651, pt. III, dist. ii, cap. iii, p. 448, and Note, p. 745). Probably the introduction of the name Jehovah antedates even R. Martin."
The word seems to come via the German monasteries where YHWH was written JHVH (J is Y in German and W becomes V). Because of the ban from Leviticus 24:16: "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die" - there was a ban in Biblical Times from pronouncing the tetragrammaton, and the word Adonai, (=Lord) was read whenever YHWH was in the text. In the late Middle Agecs the vowels of AdOnAi were added (in Germany( to the Tetragrammaton JHVH to make JaHoVaH = Jahovah, later Anglicised to Jehovah.
As an Elohim (composite male and female) God of YH (Yah, Yahu, Yaa, Yaw or Yahw) and the Goddess HWH - we get the composite name Yahweh. Further, the name has been traced to a 1400 BC Ugaritic text where YHWH is one of the 70 sons of the Canaanite creator god 'El'. In other words, the Hebrew God 'Yahweh' is derived from a pagan source (bet they don't teach you that in your Bible studies!).Regarding Jesus, the English 'Jesus' is far from the original pronunciation of the man's name. We get Jesus from Anglo-Saxon English, in which (like German today) the J was originally pronounced as a Y (like Johan is pronounced in German Yohan). Thus in Anglo-saxon times his name was pronounced *Yesus rather than *Jesus.
In Roman times Jesus, or Jesu, was pronounced as 'Hesu', which is closer to the Modern Arabic 'Isa'. In any case, it is clear from the times that the medial -s- was probably aspirated, as -sh-. When translated from Aramaic into Greek, the diphthong -uah seems to have been simplified as -u.
Thus in Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, his name was probably not Jesus (English) or Jesu (Latin) but Yeshuah. This was the 1st Century Palestinian (or even Galilean) Aramaic way, I understand, for pronouncing the name Joshua.
If one was interested in accurate pronunciation of the name of the man in English, one would have to use something like Yeshuah, not Jesus. Unfortunately we call him Jesus Christ, almost as if Christ was a surname. Yet Christ is a Greek title (meaning annointed), not an Aramaic name, and would not have been used in any setting during Yeshuah's lifetime. Thus to someone alive who knew Yeshuah personally they would, on hearing a modern English speaker use the words "Jesus Christ", ask "Who is that?"Is all of this important? Well, it certainly is to me because I learnt I was using two incorrect names during prayers. I also learnt that the whole of the Bible has its roots in Egypt (that's another story).
So, AOV, many of us have learnt an awful lot while being JWs - but we've learnt the REAL truth since leaving.
I wish you well with your studies, but please be sure to look outside of Watchtower material for accuracy. I spent 19 years in the organisation, but compared to others on this forum that's absolutely nothing. Please search the archives here and read the posts of AlanF, Hillary Step and Gamaliel. Also, be sure to read Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom by Raymond Franz.
Best wishes,
Dansk
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anotheropenviewpoint
Happyout - thank you for the recongnition (vs. slander) but I am, humbly contributing to the board.
Jessica Rabit - Well said.
Dansk - You make very valid and convincing points, stating timelines, quotes and more! Very impressive. But just as you have arranged these facts in a particular order to come to a specific conclusion... it seems very familiar... almost WTS. Now dont get me wrong, I am not discrediting your input by any means, it is not my place to do so.
Here is my question though - What do we base what we think we know on? Facts? Written by whom? Or is what we read or written even have anything to do with the words themselves?
And then again, maybe we should leave that for a new thought provoking thread.
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Dansk
AOV
Here is my question though - What do we base what we think we know on? Facts? Written by whom? Or is what we read or written even have anything to do with the words themselves?
What I'm trying to emphasise is that, just as you question where I might have got my information, which you are right to do, you must also use the same yardstick against Watchtower. Question EVERYTHING. Believe NOTHING. Do your own RESEARCH!
Dansk
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anotheropenviewpoint
Dansk - I agree with you 100%
But the one thing that I am trying to stress to others is... dont only question the WTS, question ones self and any other view points a the same time. As many claim that they have learned from the WTS, and that they have come to another conclusion from questioning thier original view point... question it as well.
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Pleasuredome
anotherpointofview
As many claim that they have learned from the WTS, and that they have come to another conclusion from questioning thier original view point... question it as well.
how far do you go questioning things before someone starts to label you as living in a fantasy world?
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SixofNine
But the one thing that I am trying to stress to others is... dont only question the WTS, question ones self and any other view points a the same time. As many claim that they have learned from the WTS, and that they have come to another conclusion from questioning thier original view point... question it as well.
OK, great. Point taken. Now how 'bout not mentioning that again until you actually see a case where someone seems to be avoiding looking at all sides of an issue? Then, when you see such a situation, please be specific in helping the person see the other side of the coin. Hmmm? How about it? It will make your presence here soooo much more palatable. That way, we'll get to find out if you have anything real to contribute, or if you just heard some professor's mantra and got it stuck in your head.