The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

by Longlivetherenegades 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Just wanted to add. The debate about this springs, in part from the Nicene Creed. The use of Greek philosophy was being used to clarify scriptural understanding. The debate was around the question of - what is the essence of god?

    They were considering the Greek words ousia - substance and homoousios - essence, neither of which appear in the bible, to explain the relationship between the father and the son.

    To me (not an expert), this seems a lot like they were trying to use the 'science' of the time to answer a doctrinal question. The 'science' they were using was flawed from the start and that probably goes a long to explaining why the subject is still divisive after almost 2000 years.

    It didnt make sense then and still doesnt make sense.

    Whether you believe one or the other is personal choice. There is no objective evidence - there is only faith, which requires no proof.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    Sea Breeze
    Apparently he can in this case. My chart above perfectly expalins it.
    A child cannot be their own parent.

    I dont believe a basic, fundamental belief that a child should be able to understand should require a chart- do you?

    Also, no chart exists that can prove a child can be their own parent.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    JJ,

    The chart is only needed to present the biblical view. Whether you accept this or not is another matter. The biblical view is consistent, logical and non-contradictory. Therefore, it could be true. It doesn't negate itself, so that is one hurdle.

    Many beliefs can't even pass the consistency test.

    - SB

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    The chart is only needed to present the biblical view.

    If by biblical you mean the 'biased view of a particular religious group' - then ok.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    JJ,

    The scriptures are cited in the chart. Which verses do you find objectionable?

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    The scriptures are cited in the chart. Which verses do you find objectionable?

    The trinity doctrine is often described as being 'mysterious' or 'paradoxical' by those that believe it and base their eternal soul on it being true or not.

    The concept of what god/ jesus is and their relationship should be easy to grasp and not require mental gymnastics. Scriptures clearly make distinctions between god and jesus, and most never mention 'the holy spirit'.

    Your belief is based on faith - not reason. You know that you are not your parent, why are you trying to convince others that god is his own parent?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    JJ,

    Please point out the inconsistency in the chart and scriptures I provided. Can you?

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo

    The scriptures attached to your chart prove nothing. No one reading them objectively would form the conclusion that god = 3 seperate beings.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    The scriptures attached to your chart prove nothing.

    It proves how Jesus could be both God and Man at the same time.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard
    @MeanMrMustard: because what you state is the view of Jesus according to Mormons (or Islam).

    No, you're missing the point altogether. For Mormons the central figure is Joseph Smith. For Muslims it's Mohammad. Jesus plays secondary, if not tertiary roles. What we have here are many different denominations that say, "Jesus is the central figure. It is Him! Or him." Whatever scripture you have for your view, they explain it differently, and their view is just as sincere.

    You cannot agree to reject the divinity of Christ as elaborated in the Nicene Creed and still be a Christian, it’s kind of the definition of being a Christian, ...

    Well, they disagree with your definition. If you just claim your view is "kinda the definition" / defacto Christianity, then they will simply claim the same and we've gained nothing.

    My point is that you may be right. They may be right. But it's not as central of an issue as your think. Or as they think. It is tiny, academic. When someone asks "what is required to gain salvation", the answer isn't the Nicene Creed. Also, the answer isn't the rejection of the Nicene Creed.

    every denomination has held this since the establishment of Christianity.

    So?

    The trinity is just the mechanics of how God came to Earth and died for our sins in a human body, because nobody can ‘see’ God in completeness and live, therefore there must be a part of God that came down (the Son) and a connecting force (the Holy Spirit). It’s more of an explanation, but you cannot say they are separate, that would be considered heresy.

    What's more important : the details of the mechanics of salvation, or the fact that there is an opportunity for salvation with pretty easy, non-intellectual requirements? Why add complication to the formula, either to require a Trinitarian God, or to reject one?

    You can call your belief something else, but the majority of Christians would agree you are not a Christian if you reject that.

    Except the other Christians that disagree.

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