The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

by Longlivetherenegades 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @MeanMrMustard and @joeyjojo: I personally don’t care what YOU believe, I’m merely talking about the definition of “Christian”. As I said, there are other faiths, it’s like the definition of master electrician, just because I know how to fix my electric doesn’t make me a (licensed) electrician, you can’t say a master electrician is anyone who believes himself to be an electrician, there is in most jurisdiction a legal definition of master, you can’t call yourself an electrician unless you qualify by some third parties’ definitions. There are other things, almost everything in this world, you can tell people you are a girl when you are in fact a man, you can’t change the definitions of man and woman however.

    Historically speaking, Christians are by definition those who believe in the deity of Christ. As you know from other posts, I have my own critical view of faith and Christianity, that doesn’t take away the fact that the core tenets of Christians and Jews and Muslims are not interchangeable, just like the definition of man and woman is not interchangeable.

    That being said, MeanMrMustard, you said if you believe in your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yes, you are a Christian for the original meanings of the title Lord in the Bible, the divine title Adonai or kurios, which is used whenever the OT refers to God or the NT refers to Jesus. Adonai meaning being “Lord of lords” aka God. Now, you can try to argue against that Adonai does refer to God, rejecting all of Jewish and Christian and Muslim traditions (at least when it comes to the Old Testament), and start a religion around it, but outside of your small group, you will find it hard to convince others that your beliefs are ‘just like them’, just like it is hard to get a doctor to treat you as girl when you are in fact a man.

    Now don’t confuse this with the facts of trinitarianism, which is not provable, you’d have to have scientific proof for God etc etc, but that is a different conversation. Likewise the influence of other religions on both Judaism and Christianity is a fact, I believe all faiths are a distillation of natural rules and ideas and stories of what came before, therefore rejecting that JWs and Mormons do is dangerous because it ignores the reasons for the establishment of that belief. Just like accepting a man can be a woman is destabilizing to society (man in women’s sports, man in women’s bathrooms etc), there is a deeper core truth to the trinity that you can’t just reject from modern society without removing the underpinnings of the renaissance and by that modern science etc. which is why it was independently discovered in many religions as others here point out, it is a pattern that keeps appearing in India, in China, in Africa, which means there is a core there that we in Christianity express as “father-figure” (tradition, wisdom, stable future and past), a “son-figure” (youthful progression, something that conquers death, compassionate, caretaker) and then a “spirit-figure” (the inside voice, truth, music, water, desire) and then humans/faith is all of this in one, and they have to be in balance or together or whatever you want to call it, but they can’t be separated from each other else you lose your humanity, tradition without progress is bad, you become stuck, youthful vigor without checks and balances, just look at people between 18-25 and what they believe, vote and fight for and then if you just had the spirit, only the transcendent, only pursuit of pleasure and desires, you basically become an empty vessel, a hedonist, like many philosophers in the 18th and 19th century.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @Anony Mous:

    Just for the record, I'm an atheist.

    I am an atheist, former theist, participating on a thread with a title proclaiming the unending arguments about the Trinity are fruitless, all the while attempting to bear some fruit.

    I'm outside looking in, with no dog in the fight, so-to-speak, offering a viewpoint from the outside. It seems that the never ending arguments over the Trinity are like two doctors arguing over the best treatment for a patient. One says the cut on his arm should be fixed first, the other says the cut on his leg should be treated first. Meanwhile the patient is bleeding out due a large stab wound to the chest.

    And maybe, just maybe, if we can recognize that the issue of the Trinity, whichever side is correct, is a smaller issue than it's made out to be, then there will be at least some fruit from at least one thread on the internet about the Trinity.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    Anony Mous
    there is a deeper core truth to the trinity that you can’t just reject from modern society without removing the underpinnings of the renaissance and by that modern science etc. which is why it was independently discovered in many religions as others here point out, it is a pattern that keeps appearing in India, in China, in Africa

    Its a little different everywhere around the world. It could equally be said that christianity mimics the hindu idea of creator/ preserver / destroyer.

    Birth / death/ rebirth is a topic that is not unique to christianity.

    Hindu's, muslims, sikhs, jews, buddhists and other groups dont believe in a trinity. That covers a big part of the worlds population.

    Much like mustard, I think it is an exhausting subject that comes down to whether you believe it or not, like everything else to do with religion. You said it yourself - its not provable. Religion, particularly catholics, have done all they can to retard science throughout the centuries. Shouldnt they welcome knowledge? Whats the point of persecuting scientists like copernicus and galileo that told the truth? Why does the wt censor anyone that disagrees? Its all about control and power - not truth.

    This is another argument over a stupid religious point that means a lot to some people, not because of any evidence but simply because they think they are right.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    In Hindu, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are a trinity

    In Islam, God, Jesus and Mary are 3 Gods in one, they reject the Christian version of the trinity explicitly (being 1 God), but substitute the above triad and exalt it in the fifth chapter of the Quran, verses 116-118.

    Sikh Trinity is the idea that the three points of a celestial triangle are Sat Guru, The Word, and The Name. Understanding the Trinity is said to be necessary for overcoming mortality and the cycle of life and death.

    As far as Judaism, the ideas for Christianity come from it, yes they obviously reject the Jesus trinity, but they accept the references where God in the OT is a plurality and still await the divine Messiah (eg Rebbe Schneerson) Rejections of references in the OT are rather modern, and not universal, generally in reference to the Chabad-Luvovitch movement that obviously hold to it.

    Buddhists have the trikaya, Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya.

    I also reject your notion that the Catholic Church alone is what delayed science as if it were all powerful, the renaissance came about through Christian thought and primarily funded by the Church. Catholics didn’t have that much power when the Roman Empire collapsed and throughout the Dark Ages, most historians agree that the collapse of civilization in the Roman Empire is what brought about the spread of Christianity, but you don’t just stamp a new civilization out the ground, there are lots of aspects, many political, that went into that and the Church in many ways preserved knowledge from being destroyed by people that weren’t all that interested in it. Still people saw value in monasteries, early on they terraformed huge swathes of Europe, Nothern France, most of Belgium and the Netherlands were all under the sea, later on they were the only places people had preserved how to read and write. Muslims had a great influence on mathematics before going back to the Stone Age.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    Sea Breeze, why do you all have to bring in these unscriptural, made up diagrams?

    Body, Soul and Spirit???? What does that have to do with anything?

    Don't you know that it is Body + spirit = living soul.

    If you can't get that even right...

    In John 2:19 Jesus did not predict that he would raise himself from the dead, because Acts said that God raised him up. And if he could raise himself from the dead, he wasn't dead.

    Stop focusing on the words that were written because the words could have been said or written wrongly. Yes, Jesus said a bunch of crazy stuff that the apostles didn't understand and they may not have recorded it properly.

    So learn the mechanics of how things work and that won't be a problem.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @ Rattigan

    Sea Breeze, why do you all have to bring in these unscriptural, made up diagrams?

    The diagram is scriptural and illustrates how Jesus is both Fully Man and Fully God. Please explain how my chart is unscriptural or inconsistent?

    Body, Soul and Spirit???? What does that have to do with anything?

    It has everything to do with it. Before the rise of materialism in the 19th century it was commonly accepted that the spirit of a man and the soul of a man were persons. They are referred to as persons in scripture.

    In John 2:19 Jesus did not predict that he would raise himself from the dead, because Acts said that God raised him up. And if he could raise himself from the dead, he wasn't dead.

    Sure he did claim that:

    John 2: 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.

    22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (See also John 10: 18)

    This is why the resurrection was such a big deal. He predicted he would resurrect himself from the dead, while he was dead. That was AWESOME. This event is what the first Christians believed in as the above scripture clearly shows.

    Your definition of "dead" needs to be restored to its original meaning. In the bible "death" means separation of the soul, body and soul:

    Gen. 35: 18 - And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. And Rachel died, and was buried.

    Death just means "separation":

    "The wages of sin is death" (separation from the body)

    "The soul that is sinning will die" (become separated from its body)

    What part of the below chart do you find unscriptural or inconsistent?

    The fact that scripture says that...

    1. Jesus raised himself from the dead

    2. The Father raised him from the dead

    3. The Holy Spirt raised Jesus from the dead

    ... gives powerful evidence that Jesus was both God and Man.

    This is very simple to understand if you use biblical definitions. If you don't use biblical definitions, you're just wasting your time.

  • Sanchy
    Sanchy

    It's interesting how both sides of the argument could use different Bible scriptures to prove their point.

    What does that say about the Bible and its authors?

  • Duran
    Duran
    The diagram is scriptural and illustrates how Jesus is both Fully Man and Fully God.

    SB, do you have a spirit?

    Do you have emotions, will and a mind?

    Do you have a body?

    Are you a god?

    Are you Jehovah God?

  • Longlivetherenegades
    Longlivetherenegades

    Really appreciate the discussion here. All this unending back and forth over trinity in summary for me is men queuing behind fellow to advance their agenda and ideology which count for little in the final analysis.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @renegade: you started the question, various people have given different analyses, I’ve given you a historical analysis why Christians believe in the trinity and which non-Christians reject it. It is a great filter to see those who still believe in WTBTS doctrine rather than Christian doctrine. This is not about proving a spiritual point or what anyone should believe, but a critical analysis of the Bible and religious history clearly shows the trinity being the heterodox and those who separate from that considered heretical to Christians.

    You cannot prove there is no trinity unless you mis-translate the Bible. The above poorly conceived arguments from WTBTS are irrelevant to 99.99% of this world “how could he raise himself from the dead” - because his soul/spirit/deity-ness was not missing or dead. The flesh was ‘dead’, sure, it was figuratively eaten by his disciples in the story, and again, not arguing whether this was a real thing that happened as a matter of fact, but in the scripture, Jesus said himself that he was going to descend into hell for 3 days, now, if he was dead, how would he go somewhere, why would he make a point to clarify he was going to hell, nowhere does Jesus say he was going to ‘rest’ or ‘sleep’ or ‘be unaware’. If you want to say hell is just the grave (good luck proving that) now also reject the religious and symbolism for the soul and hell and redemption, you keep threading that apart, you get to dismantle the entire structure of Christianity and that is exactly what WTBTS tries to do, deconstruct everything so they are holding the power, it is what cults do.

    I don’t personally believe in a literal hell, literal soul, or literalism in general, but what WTBTS does is deconstruct the entire Christian culture and with it Western society. I am interested in the analysis of the symbolism and the effects that has had on culture, laws and history and therefore, I am an ‘atheist in defense of the trinity’.

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