The unending and fruitless argument on Trinity

by Longlivetherenegades 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  MeanMrMustard

  Well for one thing, without divinity, Jesus would have been a liar when he said that he would resurrect himself from the dead. I face plenty of liars in my line of work; don't need another one in my life.

  Ok. But the non-Trinitarians have a different way of reading those scriptures, and because human language can be quite subjective, their reading is plausible too, and in their view, Jesus is also not a liar.

  My question is - why is this issue such contentious such that both sides wish to revoke the title of "Christian" from the other, including salvation with it?
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  jhine

  Is this more of an American thing ? Here in the UK l would say that it's mostly the JWs and Mormons who choose to keep separate . That is to do with control over members. Both religions that started in the US .

  If they come to my door l will engage with them and explain why l believe what l do . I do tend to point out the false prophecies to try to get them to think about that .

  I won't mention the Trinity if they don't.

  Jan from Tam
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  KerryKing

  I don't even see why it's so important to believe in a trinity or not to believe.

  The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all spirits, literally air, wind, breath.

  We can't see it, even though it's all around us, to me it's like arguing whether the wind is square, round, oval etc.

  Humans try way too hard to visualise everything, but we can't, many times we just need to accept that not everything is seeable, it's not matter. Our brains seem to struggle with that.

  Spirits are all around us, they can shape shift, enter and leave physical bodies, (human, snake, donkey, pig), walk through walls and doors, move physical objects in their spirit state etc etc.

  I think they could probably do the same with each other whenever they choose to, and undo it when needed.

  I doubt very much that anyone's salvation depends on whether you believe in a trinity or not.
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  Sea Breeze

  I doubt very much that anyone's salvation depends on whether you believe in a trinity or not.

  Some truth to this. I wasn't fully on board with it when I got saved. I believed Jesus was raised from the dead and that he now has "all power in heaven and earth". He said, "come to me", so I cried out to Jesus to save me. Apparently, that was enough.

  The Holy Spirit got me straightened out on a number of things later, siting in church, listenening to good KJV verses woven into messages.
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  MeanMrMustard

  @SeaBreeze:

  It's funny how I've heard the exact same thing from non-Trinitarians.

  But again, by your experience, salvation is not dependent on understanding the inner workings / nature of God. So if someone can never come to terms with a Trinitarian God, that is, it honestly doesn't make sense to them, then would God pull away salvation?
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  Anony Mous

  @MeanMrMustard. The non-trinitarian nature of God is ONLY by Miller, Smith and their modern day followers. Which other Christian denomination holds that God is not triune with the Son? People here claim the false preachings of the WTBTS as if this is common belief amongst protestants or a big debate, when it is not. One guy in the second century started preaching it and he was declared a heretic by all other Christians across the Roman Empire, every other idea like it has been declared heretical.

  I’m not saying whether your belief is valid or not, it is just not accepted as a Christian doctrine, if you believe in everything in the Bible but not the divinity of Jesus, you are basically a Jew or a Muslim, nothing wrong with that, but it is not accurate to say that Reformation Judaism, Mormonism, Islam or Millerism (including SDA and JW) is Christian. Many atheists believe a man like Jesus or named Jesus existed at the time and was a preacher, I would say probably 90% of them do believe that as being a fact, that does not make them Christians.
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  KerryKing

  Doctrines taught by men rely on the interpretation of translations of copies of copies from ancient languages no longer spoken.

  Even if you believed that all the copyists and translators were also under the guidance of holy spirit so the scriptures have been passed down as pure as the day they were written by inspired authors.....I still haven't found one single verse that states that we need to read and teach the written Bible in order to be saved.

  There are verses where Jesus is quoted as saying that his followers will worship in spirit and truth. His disciples were commanded to teach all the things they had learnt from Jesus. Word of mouth.

  The Bible as we know it, the NT, is never mentioned in any prophecy as being the guide of future Jesus followers. Jesus did not even command his disciples or apostles to write down his teachings. If our salvation depended on all that knowledge surely it would say that somewhere in that book of books???
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  Touchofgrey

  https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/pagan-roots-of-the-trinity-doctrine-ed-torrence-2002

  Interesting article about the evolution of the trinity doctrine and its pagan roots.
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  joey jojo

  This debate is a good demonstration of how blind faith works.

  The church (not god), arrives at a conclusion and it is set in stone. From this point forward, those that believe it are blessed and those that question it are called heretics and suffer. This continues for centuries.

  Unlike normal organisations, like businesses that have to adapt and justify their existence, the church expects all those around to change and adapt, whether they agree or not.

  The believers like it this way because they don't like change. They want something solid, even if it's demonstrably wrong. They would rather die in unquestioning ignorance than explore their own beliefs because to do so would take them to places they are uncomfortable. They don't want to experience how it feels to have their faith shaken because it scares them. It is far easier to have someone else do the thinking for you
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  MeanMrMustard

  @Anony Mous:

  See, now there is a link on the thread detailing how, in fact, the Trinitarian side is pagan, and by default non-Christian.

  If someone believes in Jesus, repents, and believes in the resurrection - and that person is saved, isn't that person a Christian? If your Lord and savior Jesus Christ saves someone, wouldn't THAT be the definition of Christian?

  Also, at that point, any doctrine or teaching not required to bring someone to that state seems to be of secondary importance. That's not saying it's unimportant - just not fundamental. The Nicene Creed is not the way to salvation. But neither is its rejection.