by ros 264 Replies latest jw friends
rem
You challenge me to post a chart of Babylonian king and their reigns with their respective dates. I challenge you to post the reigns and dates for the Divided Monarchy for Judah and Israel. I have put this challenge to all readers on this board, to date nobody is prepared to propose such a list and yet you all talk about the Jonsson hypothesis representing an absolute chronology. You must be dreaming.
scholar BA MA Studies in Religion
I did not say that the translation 'kingship' means vassalage at all but the fact is that Jehoiakim was a vassal to Neb. The word kingship suggests vassalage by implication and does just mean reign as a pure chronological datum. In other words one needs to becareful in imputing a chronological datim to this verse as the NWT uses kingship rather than reign.
Scholar --
How does the word "kingship" suggest "vassalage"? I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. Could you please clarify this for me? Are you saying that the Hebrew word "malkhuth" does not imply vassalage, but the English word "kingship" does suggest "vassalage" "by implication"?
This cannot be. First of all, I am unaware of any English dictionary or Hebrew lexicon which supports the claim that kingship implies vassalage.Secondly, the NWT uses kingship" to refer to God's reign.
Ps 103:19 Jehovah himself has firmly established his throne in the very heavens;And over everything his own kingship has held domination. (NWT) Ps 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts and the glory of the splendor of his kingship (NWT)
Ps 145:13 You r kingship is a kingship for all times indefinite, and your dominion is throughout all successive generations (NWT)
I looked at all 91 occurrences of the word "malkuth" =
tWkl]m
= Strong's #4438, in the NWT.
I found that the NWT translators render the Hebrew word in the following ways:
KingshipReignKingdom
Royal
Realm
Royal Realm
Royal dignity
Royally
Becoming King (with a footnote) Kingship and reign are used interchangeably.
Compare Daniel 1:1 (In the third year of the kingship of Je·hoi´a·kim the king of Judah) with the following verses:
2 Chron. 3:2 -- Accordingly he started to build in the second month on the second [day], in the fourth year of his reign.2 Chron 15:10 --- So they were collected together at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of A´sa’s reign. (NWT)
2 Chron 15:19 --- As for war, it did not occur down to the thirty-fifth year of A´sa’s reign (NWT)
2 Chron 16:1 -- In the thirty-sixth year of the reign of A´sa, Ba´a·sha the king of Israel came up against Judah and began to build Ra´mah, so as not to allow anyone to go out or come in to A´sa the king of Judah. (NWT)
2 Chron 16:12 -- And A´sa in the thirty-ninth year of his reign developed an ailment in his feet until he was very sick; and even in his sickness he searched not for Jehovah but for the healers (NWT)
2 Chron 29:19 --- And all the utensils that King A´haz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah. (NWT)
2 Chron 35:19 -- In the eighteenth year of Jo·si´ah’s reign this passover was held (NWT)
Ezra 4:5 --- and hiring counselors against them to frustrate their counsel all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia down till the reign of Da·ri´us the king of Persia (NWT)
Ezra 4:6 --- And in the reign of A·has·u·e´rus, at the start of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem
Ezra 7:1 --- And after these things in the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king of Persia, Ez´ra the son of Se·rai´ah the son of Az·a·ri´ah the son of Hil·ki´ah (NWT)
Ezra 8:1 --- Now these were the heads of their paternal houses and the genealogical enrollment of those going up with me during the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king out of Babylon (NWT)
Esther 2:16 --- Then Esther was taken to King A·has·u·e´rus at his royal house in the tenth month, that is, the month Te´beth, in the seventh year of his reign (NWT)
Here are all 91 occurrences of the word in the Bible. The KJV translation is listed first, followed by the NWT. To make it less tedious to read through this long list, I have highlighted some of the places where the NWT renders "malkuth" with a word other than "kingship". I managed to put the first few sets of verses in boxes, but then the formatting became erratic.
Nu 24:7 (KJV)He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted.
Water keeps trickling from his two leather buckets,And his seed is by many waters.His king also will be higher than A´gag,And his kingdom will be lifted up. (NWT)
1 Sa 20:31 (KJV) For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die.For all the days that the son of Jes´se is alive on the ground, you and your kingship will not be firmly established. So now send and fetch him to me, for he is destined for death. (NWT)
1 Ki 2:12 (KJV)Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.As for Sol´o·mon, he sat down upon the throne of David his father; and gradually his
kingship became very firmly established. (NWT)
1 Ch 11:10 (KJV)These also are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who strengthened themselves with him in his kingdom , and with all Israel, to make him king, according to the word of the LORD concerning Israel.Now these are the heads of the mighty men that belonged to David, holding strongly with him in his
kingship together with all Israel, to make him king according to Jehovah’s word concerning Israel. (NWT)
1 Ch 12:23 (KJV)And these are the numbers of the bands that were ready armed to the war, and came to David to Hebron, to turn the kingdom of Saul to him, according to the word of the LORD.And these were the numbers of the heads of those equipped for the army that came to David at He´bron to turn the
kingship of Saul over to him according to Jehovah’s order. (NWT)
1 Ch 14:2 (KJV)And David perceived that the LORD had confirmed him king over Israel, for his kingdom was lifted up on high, because of his people Israel.
And David came to know that Jehovah had firmly established him as king over Israel, for his kingship was highly exalted on account of his people Israel (NWT)
1 Ch 17:11 (KJV)And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom .
And it must occur that when your days have come to the full [for you] to go [to be] with your forefathers, I shall certainly raise up your seed after you that will come to be one of your sons, and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingship . (NWT)
1 Ch 17:14 (KJV) But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
And I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship to time indefinite, and his throne will itself become one lasting to time indefinite. (NWT)
1 Ch 22:10 (KJV) He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
It is he that will build a house to my name, and he himself will become a son to me, and I a father to him. And I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingship firmly over Israel to time indefinite.’ (NWT)
1 Ch 26:31 (KJV) Among the Hebronites was Jerijah the chief, even among the Hebronites, according to the generations of his fathers. In the fortieth year of the reign of David they were sought for, and there were found among them mighty men of valour at Jazer of Gilead.
Of the He´bron·ites, Je·ri´jah was the head of the He´bron·ites by its generations by forefathers. In the fortieth year of David’s kingship they were sought out, and valiant, mighty men came to be found among them in Ja´zer in Gil´e·ad (NWT)
1 Ch 28:5 (KJV) And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
and out of all my sons (for many are the sons whom Jehovah has given me) he then chose Sol´o·mon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingship of Jehovah over Israel (NWT)
1 Ch 28:7 (KJV)Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
And I shall certainly establish his kingship firmly to time indefinite if he will be strongly resolved to do my commandments and my judicial decisions, as at this day. (NWT)
1 Ch 29:25 (KJV) And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel. And Jehovah continued to make Sol´o·mon surpassingly great before the eyes of all Israel and to put upon him such royal dignity as had not come to be upon any king before him over Israel. (NWT)
1 Ch 29:29-30 (KJV) Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer, With all his reign and his might, and the times that went over him, and over Israel, and over all the kingdoms of the countries.
... together with all his kingship and his mightiness and the times that had passed over him and over Israel and over all the kingdoms of the lands. (NWT)
2 Ch 1:1 (KJV) And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.
And Sol´o·mon the son of David continued to get strength in his kingship , and Jehovah his God was with him and kept making him surpassingly great (NWT)
2 Ch 2:1 (KJV) And Solomon determined to build an house for the name of the LORD, and an house for his kingdom. Sol´o·mon now gave the word to build a house to Jehovah’s name and a house for his kingship (NWT)
2 Ch 2:12 (KJV) Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD, and an house for his kingdom .
And Hi´ram went on to say: "Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who made the heavens and the earth, because he has given to David the king a wise son, experienced in discretion and understanding, who will build a house to Jehovah and a house for his kingship (NWT)
2 Ch 3:2 (KJV) And he began to build in the second day of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign .
Accordingly he started to build in the second month on the second [day], in the fourth year of his reign. (NWT)
2 Ch 7:18 (KJV)Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom , according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.
I will also establish the throne of your kingship, just as I covenanted with David your father, saying, ‘There will not a man of yours be cut off from ruling over Israel. (NWT)
2 Ch 11:17 (KJV) So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
And they kept strengthening the kingship of Judah and confirming Re·ho·bo´am the son of Sol´o·mon for three years, for they walked in the way of David and Sol´o·mon for three years (NWT)
2 Ch 12:1 (KJV) And it came to pass, when Rehoboam had established the kingdom , and had strengthened himself, he forsook the law of the LORD, and all Israel with him.
And it came about that, as soon as the kingship of Re·ho·bo´am was firmly established and as soon as he was strong, he left the law of Jehovah, and also all Israel with him (NWT)
2 Ch 15:10 (KJV) So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa.
So they were collected together at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of A´sa’s reign. (NWT)
2 Ch 15:19 (KJV) And there was no more war unto the five and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa.
As for war, it did not occur down to the thirty-fifth year of A´sa’s reign (NWT)
2 Ch 16:1 (KJV) In the six and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa Baasha king of Israel came up against Judah, and built Ramah, to the intent that he might let none go out or come in to Asa king of Judah.
In the thirty-sixth year of the reign of A´sa, Ba´a·sha the king of Israel came up against Judah and began to build Ra´mah, so as not to allow anyone to go out or come in to A´sa the king of Judah. (NWT)
2 Ch 16:12 (KJV) And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
And A´sa in the thirty-ninth year of his reign developed an ailment in his feet until he was very sick; and even in his sickness he searched not for Jehovah but for the healers (NWT)
2 Ch 20:30 (KJV) So the realm of Jehoshaphat was quiet: for his God gave him rest round about.
Thus the royal realm of Je·hosh´a·phat had no disturbance, and his God continued to give him rest all around. (NWT)
2 Ch 29:19 (KJV) Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.
And all the utensils that King A´haz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah. (NWT)
2 Ch 33:13 (KJV) And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom . Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God.
And he kept praying to Him, so that He let himself be entreated by him and He heard his request for favor and restored him to Jerusalem to his kingship ; and Ma·nas´seh came to know that Jehovah is the [true] God. (NWT)
2 Ch 35:19 (KJV) In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josiah was this passover kept.
In the eighteenth year of Jo·si´ah’s reign this passover was held (NWT)
2 Ch 36:20 (KJV) And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:
Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign; (NWT)
2 Ch 36:22 (KJV) Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom , and put it also in writing, saying,
And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia, so that he caused a cry to pass through all his kingdom , and also in writing, saying (NWT)
Ezr 1:1 (KJV) Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom , and put it also in writing, saying,
And in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, that Jehovah’s word from the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah roused the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia so that he caused a cry to pass through all his realm , and also in writing, saying (NWT)
Ezr 4:5 (KJV) And hired counsellors against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia.
and hiring counselors against them to frustrate their counsel all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia down till the reign of Da·ri´us the king of Persia (NWT)
Ezr 4:6 (KJV) And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign , wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.
And in the reign of A·has·u·e´rus, at the start of his reign, they wrote an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem
Ezr 7:1 (KJV) Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah,
And after these things in the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king of Persia, Ez´ra the son of Se·rai´ah the son of Az·a·ri´ah the son of Hil·ki´ah (NWT)
Ezr 8:1 (KJV) These are now the chief of their fathers, and this is the genealogy of them that went up with me from Babylon, in the reign of Artaxerxes the king.
Now these were the heads of their paternal houses and the genealogical enrollment of those going up with me during the reign of Ar·ta·xerx´es the king out of Babylon (NWT)
Ne 9:35 (KJV) For they have not served thee in their kingdom, and in thy great goodness that thou gavest them, and in the large and fat land which thou gavest before them, neither turned they from their wicked works.
And they themselves—during their kingdom and amid your abundant good things that you gave to them and in the broad and fat land that you made available for them, they did not serve you and did not turn back from their bad practices. (NWT)
Ne 12:22 (KJV) The Levites in the days of Eliashib, Joiada, and Johanan, and Jaddua, were recorded chief of the fathers: also the priests, to the reign of Darius the Persian.
The Levites in the days of E·li´a·shib, Joi´a·da and Jo·ha´nan and Jad´du·a were recorded as heads of paternal houses, also the priests, down till the kingship of Da·ri´us the Persian. (NWT)
Es 1:2 (KJV) That in those days, when the king Ahasuerus sat on the throne of his kingdom , which was in Shushan the palace,
[that] in those days as King A·has·u·e´rus was sitting upon his royal throne, which was in Shu´shan the castle (NWT)
Es 1:4 (KJV) When he shewed the riches of his glorious kingdom and the honour of his excellent majesty many days, even an hundred and fourscore days.
when he showed the riches of his glorious kingdom and the honor [and] the beauty of his greatness for many days, a hundred and eighty days. (NWT)
Es 1:7 (KJV) And they gave them drink in vessels of gold, (the vessels being diverse one from another,) and royal wine in abundance, according to the state of the king. *royal wine = wine of the kingdom
And there was a passing of wine to drink in gold vessels; and the vessels were different from one another, and the royal wine was in great quantity, according to the means of the king (NWT)
Es 1:9 (KJV) Also Vashti the queen made a feast for the women in the royal house which belonged to king Ahasuerus.
Also, Vash´ti the queen herself held a banquet for the women at the royal house that belonged to King A·has·u·e´rus. (NWT)
Es 1:11 (KJV) To bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal , to shew the people and the princes her beauty: for she was fair to look on.
to bring Vash´ti the queen in the royal headdress before the king, to show the peoples and the princes her loveliness; for she was beautiful in appearance. (NWT)
Es 1:14 (KJV) And the next unto him was Carshena, Shethar, Admatha, Tarshish, Meres, Marsena, and Memucan, the seven princes of Persia and Media, which saw the king’s face, and which sat the first in the kingdom;
a nd those closest to him were Car·she´na, She´thar, Ad·ma´tha, Tar´shish, Me´res, Mar·se´na, [and] Me·mu´can, seven princes of Persia and Me´di·a, having access to the king, [and] who were sitting first in the kingdom ): (NWT)
Es 1:19 (KJV) If it please the king, let there go a royal commandment from him, and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, that it be not altered, That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she.
If to the king it does seem good, let a royal word go out from his person, and let it be written among the laws of Persia and Me´di·a, that it may not pass away, that Vash´ti may not come in before King A·has·u·e´rus; and her royal dignity let the king give to a companion of hers, a woman better than she is (NWT)
Es 1:20 (KJV) And when the king’s decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire , (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honour, both to great and small.
And the decree of the king that he will make must be heard in all his realm (for it is vast), and all the wives themselves will give honor to their owners, the great as well as the small. (NWT)
Es 2:3 (KJV) And let the king appoint officers in all the provinces of his kingdom, that they may gather together all the fair young virgins unto Shushan the palace, to the house of the women, unto the custody of Hege the king’s chamberlain, keeper of the women; and let their things for purification be given them:
and let the king appoint commissioners in all the jurisdictional districts of his realm, and let them collect together all the young women, virgins, beautiful in appearance, at Shu´shan the castle, at the house of the women in charge of Heg´a·i the king’s eunuch, the guardian of the women; and let there be a giving of their massages (NWT)
Es 2:16 (KJV) So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is the month Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign.
T hen Esther was taken to King A·has·u·e´rus at his royal house in the tenth month, that is, the month Te´beth, in the seventh year of his reign (NWT)
Es 2:17 (KJV) And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti.
And the king came to love Esther more than all the other women, so that she gained more favor and loving-kindness before him than all the other virgins. And he proceeded to put the royal headdress upon her head and make her queen instead of Vash´ti (NWT)
Es 3:6 (KJV) And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had shewed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.
But it was despicable in his eyes to lay hand upon Mor´de·cai alone, for they had told him about Mor´de·cai’s people; and Ha´man began seeking to annihilate all the Jews who were in all the realm of A·has·u·e´rus, Mor´de·cai’s people (NWT)
Es 3:8 (KJV) And Haman said unto king Ahasuerus, There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom ; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king’s laws: therefore it is not for the king’s profit to suffer them.And Ha´man proceeded to say to King A·has·u·e´rus: "There is one certain people scattered and separated among the peoples in all the jurisdictional districts of your
realm ; and their laws are different from all other people’s, and the king’s own laws they are not performing, and for the king it is not appropriate to let them alone. (NWT)
Es 4:14 (KJV) For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father’s house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?For if you are altogether silent at this time, relief and deliverance themselves will stand up for the Jews from another place; but as for you and your father’s house, YOU people will perish. And who is there knowing whether it is for a time like this that you have attained to
royal dignity ? (NWT)
Es 5:1 (KJV) Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king’s house, over against the king’s house: and the king sat upon his royal throne in the royal house, over against the gate of the house.
And it came about on the third day that Esther went dressing up royally , after which she took her stand in the inner courtyard of the king’s house opposite the king’s house, while the king was sitting on his royal throne in the royal house opposite the entrance of the house (NWT)
Es 5:3 (KJV) Then said the king unto her, What wilt thou, queen Esther? and what is thy request? it shall be even given thee to the half of the kingdom.
T hen the king said to her: "What do you have, O Esther the queen, and what is your request? To the half of the kingship —let it even be given to you! (NWT)
Es 5:6 (KJV) And the king said unto Esther at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? even to the half of the kingdom it shall be performed.
In time the king said to Esther during the banquet of wine: "What is your petition? Let it even be granted you! And what is your request? To the half of the kingship —let it even be done! (NWT)
Es 6:8 (KJV) Let the royal apparel be brought which the king useth to wear, and the horse that the king rideth upon, and the crown royal which is set upon his head:
let them bring royal apparel with which the king does clothe himself and a horse upon which the king does ride and on the head of which the royal headdress has been put. (NWT)
Es 7:2 (KJV) And the king said again unto Esther on the second day at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition, queen Esther? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? and it shall be performed, even to the half of the kingdom .
The king now said to Esther also on the second day during the banquet of wine: "What is your petition, O Esther the queen? Let it even be given to you. And what is your request? To the half of the kingship —let it even be done (NWT)
Es 8:15 (KJV) And Mordecai went out from the presence of the king in royal apparel of blue and white, and with a great crown of gold, and with a garment of fine linen and purple: and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad.
As for Mor´de·cai, he went forth from before the king in royal apparel of blue and linen, with a great crown of gold, and a fine-fabric cloak, even of wool dyed reddish purple. And the city of Shu´shan itself cried out shrilly and was joyful (NWT)
Es 9:30 (KJV) And he sent the letters unto all the Jews, to the hundred twenty and seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, with words of peace and truth,
Then he sent written documents to all the Jews in the one hundred and twenty-seven jurisdictional districts, the realm of A·has·u·e´rus, [in] words of peace and truth
Ps 45:6 (KJV) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever;The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness (NWT)
Ps 103:19 (KJV) The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Jehovah himself has firmly established his throne in the very heavens;And over everything his own kingship has held domination. (NWT)
Ps 145:11 (KJV)
They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom , and talk of thy power;
About the glory of your kingship they will talk,A nd about your mightiness they will speak (NWT)
Ps 145:12 (KJV) To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
T o make known to the sons of men his mighty acts And the glory of the splendor of his kingship (NWT)
Ps 145:13 (KJV) Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
Your kingship is a kingship for all times indefinite, And your dominion is throughout all successive generations (NWT)
Ec 4:14 (KJV) For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor
For he has gone forth from the prison house itself to become king, although in the kingship of this one he had been born as one of little means (NWT)
Je 10:7 (KJV) Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms , there is none like unto thee.
Who should not fear you, O King of the nations, for to you it is fitting; because among all the wise ones of the nations and among all their kingships there is in no way anyone like you (NWT)
Je 49:34 (KJV) The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying,
This is what occurred as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet concerning E´lam in the beginning of the kingship of Zed·e·ki´ah the king of Judah, saying (NWT)
Je 52:31 (KJV) And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison,
At length it came about in the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-fifth day of the month, that E´vil-mer´o·dach the king of Babylon, in the year of his becoming king , raised up the head of Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah and proceeded to bring him forth from the prison house (NWT) * Lit., "his kingship." Heb., mal·khu·thoh´. [The preceding is the NWT's own footnote; it is not a note from me -- Marjorie]
Da 1:1 (KJV) In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.
In the third year of the kingship of Je·hoi´a·kim the king of Judah, Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it (NWT)
Da 1:20 (KJV) And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm .
And as regards every matter of wisdom [and] understanding that the king inquired about from them, he even got to find them ten times better than all the magic-practicing priests [and] the conjurers that were in all his royal realm (NWT)
Da 2:1 (KJV) And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
And in the second year of the kingship of Neb·u·chad·nez´zar, Neb·u·chad·nez´zar dreamed dreams; and his spirit began to feel agitated, and his very sleep was made to be something beyond him (NWT)
Da 8:1 (KJV) In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
In the third year of the kingship of Bel·shaz´zar the king, there was a vision that appeared to me, even me, Daniel, after the one appearing to me at the start (NWT)
Da 8:22 (KJV) Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power. (NWT)
Da 8:23 (KJV) And in the latter time of their kingdom , when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And in the final part of their kingdom , as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. (NWT)
Da 9:1 (KJV) In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
In the first year of Da·ri´us the son of A·has·u·e´rus of the seed of the Medes, who had been made king over the kingdom of the Chal·de´ans; (NWT)
Da 10:13 (KJV) But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia (NWT)
Da 11:2 (KJV) And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
And now what is truth I shall tell to you: "Look! There will yet be three kings standing up for Persia, and the fourth one will amass greater riches than all [others]. And as soon as he has become strong in his riches, he will rouse up everything against the kingdom of Greece (NWT)
Da 11:4 (KJV) And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
And when he will have stood up, his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens, but not to his posterity and not according to his dominion with which he had ruled; because his kingdom will be uprooted, even for others than these. (NWT)
Da 11:9 (KJV) So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom , and shall return into his own land.
And he will actually come into the kingdom of the king of the south and go back to his own soil (NWT)
Da 11:17 (KJV) He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom , and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
And he will set his face to come with the forcefulness of his entire kingdom , and there will be equitable [terms] with him; and he will act effectively. And as regards the daughter of womankind, it will be granted to him to bring her to ruin. And she will not stand, and she will not continue to be his (NWT)
Da 11:20 (KJV) Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom : but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
"And there must stand up in his position one who is causing an exactor to pass through the splendid kingdom , and in a few days he will be broken, but not in anger nor in warfare. (NWT)
Da 11:21 (KJV) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom : but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
"And there must stand up in his position one who is to be despised, and they will certainly not set upon him the dignity of [the] kingdom ; and he will actually come in during a freedom from care and take hold of [the] kingdom by means of smoothness.
Marjorie
I asked you first...
rem
Regarding Daniel 1:1 the translation reads 'kingship' and not 'reign' as in the NWT, There is a big difference between these two words
Scholar ---
--- If there is a big difference between these two words, then why does the NWT use them interchangeably for the same Hebrew word, as I posted above?
--- And if there is a big difference between these two words, then why does the NWT use the word "kingship" instead of "reign" to refer to Jehovah in the book of Psalms and in 1 Chronicles 28:5?
--- And if there is a big difference between these two words, then why does the NWT use both terms in regard to Darius the Persian? Ezra 4:5 says "the reign of Darius the king of Persia" but Nehemiah 12:22 says "the kingship of Darius the Persian".
--- If there is a big difference between "kingship" and "reign" then can you explain this:
The word "KINGSHIP" is used in reference to:
Jehovah
Jehoiakim (our Daniel 1:1 verse)
Saul
Solomon
David
Darius the Persian
Zedekiah
Evil-Merodach
Nebuchadnezzar
Belshazzar
Rehoboam You said "the word kingship suggests vassalage by implication". Is there an implication of vassalage with regard to Jehovah, Saul, Solomon, David, and Nebuchadnezzar?
The word "REIGN" is used in reference to:
Asa
Ahaz
Josiah
Ahasuerus
Artaxerxes
Darius the Persian
Marjorie
"scholar":
I understand that Rem's request is far too difficult for you to answer, and that is why you resort to your usual "run and hide behind impossible questions" tactics. What you fail to understand is that even the Watchtower Society no longer claims to have a solid chronology of "the reigns and dates for the Divided Monarchy for Judah and Israel". This is proved by the fact that the old "chronology" presented in the old Aid book (pp. 340-7) is not given in the Insight book. The men who revised the Aid book into the Insight book obviously realized that there are too many holes which the Aid book glossed over -- and of course, which you gloss over. So much for your self-touted scholarship.
I also understand that Marjorie's information is far too difficult for you to understand, much less answer.
So I pose for you the following simple questions as regards your (and of course, your Mommy's) claim that Jehoiakim's vassalage to Nebuchadenezzar began in his 9th year:
2 Kings 24:1-4 states (NWT):
1 In his [Jehoiakim's] days Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came up, and so Jehoiakim became his servant for three years. However, he turned back and rebelled against him. 2 And Jehovah began to send against him marauder bands of Chaldeans and marauder bands of Syrians and marauder bands of Moabites and marauder bands of the sons of Ammon, and he kept sending them against Judah to destroy it, according to Jehovah’s word that he had spoken by means of his servants the prophets. 3 It was only by the order of Jehovah that it took place against Judah, to remove it from his sight for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he had done; 4 and also [for] the innocent blood that he had shed, so that he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and Jehovah did not consent to grant forgiveness.
It is obvious that this scripture describes events that occurred over a goodly period of time, since Jehovah began sending various marauder bands against Jehoiakim, and he kept sending them. But according to you, these events were compressed into just a fraction of one year, since Jehoiakim's vassalage to Nebuchadnezzar lasted "three years" and, according to the chronology presented in the Aid book (p. 347) this vassalage began sometime in 620 B.C.E. and ended very early in 617 B.C.E., and after three years Jehoiakim "rebelled" against Nebuchadnezzar, which precipitated the latter's reprisals vai the marauder bands. So the questions are:
How do you reconcile the scriptural language that Nebuchadnezzar kept sending many marauder bands against Jehoiakim, when the scriptural timetable -- according to you and Mommy -- leaves only a few months for these many things to have occurred? Can you give a reasonable timetable for when the various "marauder bands" attacked "Judah to destroy it"? Corollary to this is: how can you possibly claim that the standard interpretation (that Jehoiakim's vassalage began early in his reign, perhaps in his 4th year) is inconsistent with Scripture when the period of time allowed for the keeping sending marauder bands amounts to three to four years?
I await your response with my usual expectation that you will give no answers, but a pile of excuses.
AlanF
Alleymom
You need to explain the difference between the use of kingship (NWT) or reign (KJV) used in Daniel 1:1. I fully appreciate that in the OT both terms are employed in the NWT. Kingship has far greater theological implications than reign as shown by the fact that kingship is given specific treatment in major reference worksas opposed to reign which is simply a chronological datum which is omitted in Daniel 1:1.
scholar BA MA Studies in Religion
Alleymom
You need to explain the difference between the use of kingship (NWT) or reign (KJV) used in Daniel 1:1. I fully appreciate that in the OT both terms are employed in the NWT. Kingship has far greater theological implications than reign as shown by the fact that kingship is given specific treatment in major reference worksas opposed to reign which is simply a chronological datum which is omitted in Daniel 1:1.
scholar BA MA Studies in Religion
Alan F
It is an assertion on your part that the Society no longer has a firm chronology for the Divided Monarchy because a simplified schema appears in the revised Aid book namely the Insight volumes. I totally reject your assertion, I would say that the presentation in the Insight book is simply suggestive of a more simplified schema for the benefit of the brethren. There is no reason to believe that the Society has abandoned its presentation of the chronology of the kings something of which ypu are enable to contribute.
scholar
BA MA Studies in Religion
You need to explain the difference between the use of kingship (NWT) or reign (KJV) used in Daniel 1:1. I fully appreciate that in the OT both terms are employed in the NWT. Kingship has far greater theological implications than reign as shown by the fact that kingship is given specific treatment in major reference worksas opposed to reign which is simply a chronological datum which is omitted in Daniel 1:1.
Haven't you got the cart before the horse <smiling>?
I suggest starting with the Hebrew word that is used in the Masoretic text.
Here's how I think the process should go:
Do some research on what the Hebrew word means:
-- Consult lexicons
-- Make a thorough study of the 91 places where the word occurs in the Masoretic text.
-- Explore the etymology; look at related words.
Kingship has far greater theological implications than reign
If that is true, then you ought to be able to answer the questions in my message from last night (posted at 02:26, just a few posts back on the thread) very easily.
In particular:
--- If there is a big difference between "kingship" and "reign" then can you explain this:
The word "KINGSHIP" is used in reference to:
Jehovah
Jehoiakim (our Daniel 1:1 verse)
Saul
Solomon
David
Darius the Persian
Zedekiah
Evil-Merodach
Nebuchadnezzar
Belshazzar
Rehoboam You said "the word kingship suggests vassalage by implication". Is there an implication of vassalage with regard to Jehovah, Saul, Solomon, David, and Nebuchadnezzar?
The word "REIGN" is used in reference to:
Asa
Ahaz
Josiah
Ahasuerus
Artaxerxes
Darius the Persian
Regards,
Marjorie
Scholar,
I find it highly interesting that instead of answering any direct questions, you prefer to turn the question back on the individual.
This can only mean that you are unable to answer the questions.
Remember, it is you that is asserting that "kingship" or "reign" really means "vassalage", therefore the burden of proof is on you, not others.
AlleyMom has provided her proof as to why it cannot/does not.
Where is yours?
