Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros 264 Replies latest jw friends

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Personally, I don't giving a flying monkey's ass whether the "Jonsson hypothesis" (I've never heard it refferred as such except by "scholar") is correct in all it's details or not. I also don't care if COJ has no scholarly credentials at all. I DO KNOW that the number of Biblical scholars that maintain that the Society's chronology, in particular it's 607 date, is correct stands at next to NONE. I think there is so much nonsense and technical obfuscation layered on to this point that the brute fact that the Society's chronology is hopelessly flawed is obscured.

    I think of a great line from Huckleberry Finn: "It's not the parts of the Bible (or WTBTS) that I don't understand that bother me. It's the parts that I DO understand that bother me."

    Bradley

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism
    (I've never heard it refferred as such except by "scholar")

    That's a good point, logan. As far as I could tell, the only really original part of Jonsson's book (at least in the chronological sections) was his theory that the question of accession-year dating should be separated from the issue of Nissan/Tishri dating. His task was essentially assembling the scholarship on the subject, rather then doing new research.

    I'm not saying this to minimize Jonsson's accomplishment, by any means... taking a large field of research and condensing it into a succint analysis, as he does, is an extraordinarily difficult task. My point is just that due to the nature of his work, his lack of formal academic credentials is simply not relevant.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Euphemism,

    True. In fact, "scholar's" use of the phrase "Jonsson hypothesis" with regard to the mainstream understanding of 587 BCE as the true date of Jerusalem's destruction could be considered a type of straw man argument. "Scholar" makes it appear that if you don't believe the Society that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607, well then you are following the lead of one man, Carl Olof Jonsson, who is not a scholar and whose credentials are circumspect. BUT -- the fact remains that 587/6 is the date supported by the incredibly vast majority of Biblical historians, a minor detail "scholar" seems to conveniently forget.

    Bradley

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    I made a mistake above... Furuli's Bible Translation book wasn't removed from Elihu. I'm not sure how I got that impression. Sorry!

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Euphemism and Bradley,

    You're making very good points. This "scholar" is no more a scholar than I'm an astronaut. He shows up from time to time and pokes at his imaginary "Jonsson hypothesis", but when challenged to a real scriptural discussion of his sticking point -- the 70 years -- invariably either runs away or falls on his face.

    Furuli is another mockery of scholarship. He drifted into a discussion on the JW blood doctrine on a scholarly DB a couple of years ago, and as you said, Euphemism, was pretty much incoherent. I have no doubt that his new book will be the same.

    AlanF

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Ros,

    Last year I purchased COJonnson's revised Gentile Times Reconsidered. I read the original edition, but unfortunately loaned it out to a person who lost it. COJ's work is very good, and I can't imagine that Furuli or anyone else will be able to refute what COJ presented. It will be interesting to see one of Furuli's volumes and whether he can present a lucid set of coherant thoughts.

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Alan,

    If anyone were to make a good argument against Jonsson's presentation, would you acknowledge it? Just asking, hope you would though.

    IW

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Euphemism,

    As far as I could tell, the only really original part of Jonsson's book (at least in the chronological sections) was his theory that the question of accession-year dating should be separated from the issue of Nissan/Tishri dating. His task was essentially assembling the scholarship on the subject, rather then doing new research.

    This point of course. has already been dealt with at great length with 'Scholar' in previous threads'. It is far easier to challenge COJ's academic qualifications than it is the summary of his work, a desperate ploy indeed. It seems, at least in Volume 1, Furili falls short, judging from the precis on his website, of aligning himself with the WTS on the actual details of their chronology, though I have not as yet recieved his book.

    It also has to be said in all fairness, that "Scholar' has agreed on a number of occasions that the WTS are out of line in disfellowshipping those who do not accept their 607BCE dating for for the first fall of Jerusalem.

    Best regards - HS

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    IW:

    : If anyone were to make a good argument against Jonsson's presentation, would you acknowledge it?

    Of course. They key concept is: good argument.

    The problem that morons like "scholar", Furuli and other Watchtower apologists have is multi-fold. First, if Watchtower chronology is correct, it would overthrow a tremendous amount of good scholarship and invalidate much of what we know about ancient history. That ain't gonna happen, any more than Newton's Laws are going to be overthrown. Second, the Bible itself clearly kills the basics of Watchtower chronology. This fact is known by the people mentioned above, and is why they won't touch the subject of 2 Chronicles 36:20 with a ten foot pole. Why do you think it's not even mentioned in any Watchtower publications? Third, time and again they have proven themselves to be fundamentally dishonest in scholarship because their first loyalty is not to the facts, but to the Watchtower. Such scholastically dishonest people are not likely to present good arguments, much less come up with correct conclusions from a huge mass of data.

    As an example, just think about the Watchtower's evolution on the subject of geology. Until at least the mid-1950s, they taught a version of the pseudoscientific theory of Isaac Newton Vail concerning Noah's Flood and how the earth's geological features came to be. In 1961 Henry Morris and John Whitcomb published the seminal The Genesis Flood, which became the basis for the modern-day young-earth creationist movement. By 1965 the Watchtower had adopted all of the nonsense in this book except that they retained C. T. Russell's belief that the creative days were not literal 24-hour ones, but 7,000-year ones. They argued strongly that well-attested geological events like multiple ice ages never happened. But around 1980 that changed again, and they quietly jettisoned all pretensions of young-earth creationist ideas. Since then they've been pretty silent on these things, to the extent that no one seems to be able to get any definite statements out of them about things that were basic to you and me, like what is the present teaching on the length of creative days? But has the Watchtower ever actually explained the reason behind the changes? Of course not, because it would expose the previous ones as stupid. My point is that Watchtower is chock full of pseudo-scholars too prideful to admit their mistakes, and too dishonest to admit that something as basic as their "chronology" -- the very basis of their religion -- is completely flawed.

    AlanF

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    HS:

    It also has to be said in all fairness, that "Scholar' has agreed on a number of occasions that the WTS are out of line in disfellowshipping those who do not accept their 607BCE dating for for the first fall of Jerusalem.

    I wasn't aware of that. Thank you.

    Craig

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