I think it would be good before getting too far down the road of this conversation to get a good working definition of the term moral. I haven't read all the pages in this thread so maybe it has been done. But if we can't define what is a moral issue in the first place then this discussion is premature. Perhaps we should start with TABOOS.
Moral absolutes
by Aztec 163 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Aztec
Okay, I'm at the library and I've got a copy of Leviathan by Hobbes right here. What doesn't kill me can only make me stronger eh?
~Aztec
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drwtsn32
all I can say is, "yum."
lol... I hadn't refreshed my avatars and that picture was still OTS's dog.
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expatbrit
Aztec:
It may indeed kill you. It damn near finished off me!....lol
Expatbrit
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expatbrit
I wonder Expat if you are saying that we have an inherent standard of morality on our own and I wonder where you draw this conclusion from? I haven't read Hobbes so you are light years ahead of me. What do you mean by perceived self-interest?
What I mean by "perceived self-interest" is that whatever we think will be of benefit to ourselves becomes morally right or good, and whatever we think will be detrimental to ourselves becomes morally bad or wrong. It is "perceived" rather than "known" because we could easily be wrong, and something that appears beneficial may turn out to be detrimental after all. This is how we all form our ethics and morality, and why a person can condemn an action taken by others, yet rationalise it as acceptable when (s)he performs that same action.
Expatbrit
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SixofNine
*slits wrist just for being human*
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reporter
Moral, measuring up to what standards? The U.S. constitution? Common Law? Islamic Law? The WTS (which is a moving target...)? The Bill of Rights? U.N. Declarations? The Bible? Which version or translation?
For example, the Immigration and Nationality Act provides for exclusions of certain foreigners on the grounds of convictions of crimes involving "moral turpitude." Who defines that?
(2) Criminal and related grounds.-
(A) Conviction of certain crimes.-
(i) In general.-Except as provided in clause (ii), any alien convicted of, or who admits having committed, or who admits committing acts which constitute the essential elements of-(I) a crime involving moral turpitude (other than a purely political offense or an attempt or conspiracy to commit such a crime), or
(II) a violation of (or a conspiracy or attempt to violate) any law or regulation of a State, the United States, or a foreign country relating to a controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)), is inadmissible.
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Irenaeus
A set of moral absolutes is only rationally possible if one believes that there is an ultimate good such as God who determines what morals should be. If one does not believe in God or at least some transcendent entity such as the Tao, then, in a purely materialistc world morality is meaningless except as a functional means of getting on within a society. However, if one can cheat, steal, rape or whatever and get away with it, there is nothing wrong with it; whatever happens just is! So, then, if there is no summum bonum, Nietzsche was quite right: We are beyond Good and Evil! This means that killing 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps was not immoral; it was just Hitler expressing his feelings. It means that cannibalism, human sacrifice, the burning of small children to Moloch, and the sexual violation of small children is okay if it suits your fancy. It also means that all the bitching about the Watchtower Society and the "sins" of the Witnesses is nothing more than psychological venting. So if you don't have some moral and ethical basis for making statements about what is right or wrong, good or evil, don't make a fool of yourself by making judgments.
On the subject of war in Iraq, it is, I believe, a violation of traditional Christian values despite George Bush and his "born again Christianity." It cannot be defended from the standpoint of Christian pacifism, nor can it fit with the "just war" theory. That, I suspect, was why the pope was so against it.
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SixofNine
Wow Irenaeus, you sure don't understand at all what it means not to believe in god. Would I be accurate in assuming you've never been in that position (of non-belief in a god or transcendent entity)?
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peacefulpete
Iraneus like many others confuse the absolutism of the scholastic terminology,"right and wrong" for the universally recognised and quantifiable concepts of, "helpful and hurtful". Declaring something "wrong" is often just an abbreviated convienience designed to preclude difficult discussion. Remember our parents used similar techniques. When we were not acting the way they desired us to, the reasoning was often limited to a simple, "NO" or "because I said so". Even as children we sensed that this was arbitrary and unsatisfying. It certainly did not broaden our understanding of the world.
This is what can happen in an unprepared society theatened by change and diversity. Narrow view fundementalism (not necessarily religious) becomes attractive for it's simplicity and mental abrogation.